The Great Braking Debate Thread (Disc/Rim/Cantilever/Fixie/InsertNewTechHere)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

blutto
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

warthog101 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:29 pm
Rim brakes aren't too quiet in the wet either.
That grinding sound is your rim being worn away.
Have been riding/racing/training since the 70's and logged an awful lot of miles and busted scores of rims....mostly due to spokes pulling thru, and race damage.... even lost a few rims when my wheels found a deep sharp pot-hole hidden in a puddle....funny, but in all that time have never ever sustained enough damage to the side-walls of a rim to retire it ( and frankly this hasn't happened much over time within a rather large circle of fellow cyclists I have been around over the years....admittedly this does happen but then so do flats...and of course there are maintenance averse cyclists that catch a lot of maintenace averse related "bad luck"...)....and I'm not especially kind to equipment though I do maintain it....

And btw compared to discs in the wet as descibed above, rim brakes are dead quiet...though admittedly they occassionaly make noise when applied after they catch a pebble but that is dead easy to diagnose and remedy...but they definitely do not produce a constantly recurring noise ...

Cheers
Last edited by blutto on Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

warthog101
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

Wet commute a few years back
Image
Yeah the rim is still around.
I'll take disc in the rain over that.
Don't need to wait for it to work either.
Mind you I prefer not to ride in the rain and don't commute anymore.
Current roadies are still rim braked.

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blutto
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

warthog101 wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:21 am
Wet commute a few years back
Image
Yeah the rim is still around.
I'll take disc in the rain over that.
Don't need to wait for it to work either.
Mind you I prefer not to ride in the rain and don't commute anymore.
Current roadies are still rim braked.
....dumb post got flushed...

Cheers
Last edited by blutto on Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

warthog101
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

I do check my pads and pick bits of alloy out from time to time.
I do my own maintence and several of my bikes have 10s of thousands of ks on them.
That is simply the result of sand and grit being on the rim and a long wet commute.
No dirt roads but rural roads.
Noted that result several times, that was just one of the worse episodes so I took a photo.
Yes I have years of cycling and racing behind me also.
Disc brakes are far better in the wet and I recognise that.

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

c60rider wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:19 pm
As was quoted somewhere on the forum by Graeme FK, quiet disc brakes in the wet are the Holy Grail ie it doesn't exist.
I spent 3 hours riding in a heavy fog/mist today. No doubt my rotors etc were wet at all times with no chance of drying out given only light braking was needed on my route. Terrifying noise, just wow. That's just the way it is. Happily the Juin Tech GT's are relatively quite when it comes to grit rubbing when not braking (bigger gap?) so a bit of win there.

Anybody watch the Boom cyclocross this past Saturday. I watched it with no commentary - ambient noise only. The brake noise was the worst I've ever heard. And while the usual howling when braking was plenty loud, the real excitement was just riding along :P most of the bikes sounded like a heavy metal chest being dragged accross a cement floor. I tried to see if I could notice whether Sram or Shimano equipped bikes were louder but they were all equally horrible.

We're all dupes. What would consumers do if their cars made this kind of racket. When someone cures this they will make some serious money. I just hope it's not Shimano or Sram that comes up with the cure. I've given those guys enough of my money.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

bobones
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

warthog101 wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:05 am
Disc brakes are far better in the wet and I recognise that.
Your claim that disc brakes are far better in the wet is simply untrue when they cannot perform without squealing and honking or grinding noisily away at pads when you're not even using them. They undoubtedly have better stopping power, but it comes at cost in terms of noise and faff that many are not willing to pay.

Your photo is nothing unusual: my winter bike gets like that after a long wet ride, but it all washes off easily enough. Yes, my wheels wear down, but replacing winter rims every couple of years is still likely to be cheaper than running resin pads in a futile quest for peace and quiet. It's still a price I'd rather pay whatever the economics.

I ride a lot in the wet and rain, and rim brakes manage to slow and stop me without drama, but best of all, my bike is absolutely silent when I'm just riding along.

Only when the noise problem is solved can disc brakes ever be 'far better in the wet'.

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robbosmans
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by robbosmans

Rim brake calipers are directly in the spray line that comes off the tires, which results in clogged calipers and brake housings. Something that won’t happen to dic brakes since there out of the way.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

bobones wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:25 am

Only when the noise problem is solved can disc brakes ever be 'far better in the wet'.

In the conditions that would make SwissStop Disc RS pads honk and scrape, aluminum braketracks would be devoured within a season of such riding. Carbon braketracks would be non-functional.

bobones
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

robbosmans wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:58 am
Rim brake calipers are directly in the spray line that comes off the tires, which results in clogged calipers and brake housings. Something that won’t happen to dic brakes since there out of the way.
Never been a problem for me, but maybe mudguards are helping with that. I also have those long nosed cable caps which may help prevent water ingress. Anyway
my cables last for ages and the only maintenance needed is washing the bike and changing the pads when they're visibly worn.

bobones
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:59 am
In the conditions that would make SwissStop Disc RS pads honk and scrape, aluminum braketracks would be devoured within a season of such riding. Carbon braketracks would be non-functional.
I get that RS pads are great for reducing noise, but our own Mr. Gib reported that he can wear out rear resin pads within 15 hours of just riding and not braking much, which is going to be more expensive and hassle than changing rims every year or two.

tjvirden
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:59 am
In the conditions that would make SwissStop Disc RS pads honk and scrape, aluminum braketracks would be devoured within a season of such riding. Carbon braketracks would be non-functional.
This is exactly my experience, and is the biggest single reason for me to use disc brakes. Braking with rim brakes in these conditions is also noisy - as has been pointed out the grinding noise of grit removing aluminum is audible. Carbon tracks are quieter, but the material still gets removed, and brake force is not great.

What I find amazing is the number of rim-brake proponents in this thread who are happy with their function, but absolutely insist that no-one else needs anything different!

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

robbosmans wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:58 am
Rim brake calipers are directly in the spray line that comes off the tires, which results in clogged calipers and brake housings. Something that won’t happen to dic brakes since there out of the way.
Correct, and that's half the reason MTBs switched to disk brakes, rim contamination.

However the maintenance needed to fix disk brake pistons when they sit at different heights in their bores and don't actuate and retract by the same amount and drag is much more than a quick spray down with a garden hose.

tjvirden
Posts: 525
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by tjvirden

bobones wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:50 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:59 am
In the conditions that would make SwissStop Disc RS pads honk and scrape, aluminum braketracks would be devoured within a season of such riding. Carbon braketracks would be non-functional.
I get that RS pads are great for reducing noise, but our own Mr. Gib reported that he can wear out rear resin pads within 15 hours of just riding and not braking much, which is going to be more expensive and hassle than changing rims every year or two.
I wish replacing rims was inexpensive and little hassle - I find it to be neither of those! Replacing rotors is inexpensive and easy. In "grinding paste" conditions, pads on rim brakes disappear just as fast as pads on disc brakes, in my experience at least. The barrel adjuster on rim brake calipers is useful to restore braking mid-ride, as the pads wear.

bobones
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

tjvirden wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:02 am
What I find amazing is the number of rim-brake proponents in this thread who are happy with their function, but absolutely insist that no-one else needs anything different!
It's exactly the opposite! I only make claims based on what's best for me, but disc brake advocates are claiming that they are universally better because they say so. I only responded again because of warthog's "Disc brakes are far better in the wet and I recognise that". This is the type of bias that I can't leave unchalleged. I don't really care what anyone else uses on their bike, but don't tell me that disc brakes are universally better in the wet when it's clear there are a multitude of problems with them.

bobones
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

tjvirden wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:11 am
I wish replacing rims was inexpensive and little hassle - I find it to be neither of those! Replacing rotors is inexpensive and easy. In "grinding paste" conditions, pads on rim brakes disappear just as fast as pads on disc brakes, in my experience at least. The barrel adjuster on rim brake calipers is useful to restore braking mid-ride, as the pads wear.
I have a dedicated winter/wet weather bike that runs aluminium wheels. I ride around 10k miles a year in the west of Scotland, so a lot of the time it is wet. The rims cost about £30-£50 each (DT Swiss R460, Mavic Open Pro UST, Ambrosio P20), and I get at least one or two winters from a rim. A set of 2 RS pads seems to cost in the order of £26 so the cost of the rims is not a big factor for me.

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