New Giant TCR Advanced announced

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

darrydonds
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:04 am

by darrydonds

Lina wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:00 pm
darrydonds wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:45 pm
Supersix56 wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:11 am
Hookless road sounds like a recall waiting to happen.
Apparently, other vehicles, such as planes and cars, use hookless. But maybe you know better.
I'll switch to road hookless as soon as I switch to tires that are as robust as car tires.
Why would bicycle tires need to be as robust as tires on a vehicle thousand times heavier and routinely moving at speeds 2-3 times faster?

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



darrydonds
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:04 am

by darrydonds

Nickldn wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:44 pm
darrydonds wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:45 pm
Supersix56 wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:11 am
Hookless road sounds like a recall waiting to happen.
Apparently, other vehicles, such as planes and cars, use hookless. But maybe you know better.
Not sure comparing aircraft tyres with bicycle tyres is an apples to apples comparison. More like apples to diamonds.

Anyway, there are a few threads on WW about why hookless is considered a compromise right now by many riders. Have a search.
Not sure what the difference could possibly be, other than the scale. The working principles and the physics should be the same.

BigBoyND
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 1:51 am
Location: Seoul, KR

by BigBoyND

darrydonds wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:21 am
Not sure what the difference could possibly be, other than the scale. The working principles and the physics should be the same.
To your point, the principles and physics are essentially the same, but the probabilities are not. Those make all the difference here.

Can you mount a car tire with a couple plastic levers? No.

Bike tires need to be far easier to get on. And for the same reason, they also come off easier. The beads on cars make sure they stay on without hooks by being very heavy, thick, and inflexible. That's fine since they are mounted with large hydraulic machines. Bike tire/wheel interface has very little margin to be both easy to mount and stay on when the tire suddenly goes flat. If the bead/wheel interface was such that it required a hydraulic press to mount, then sure it would be the same as a car.

This also compounds with the fact that car tires get flats less frequently and causes lower risk for injury when it does due to their robustness. The chances of rapid air loss are very low, tires coming off the rim even lower, loss of control before being able to stop even lower, and finally risk of injury in the event of a crash by all those things happening lower yet (it's a metal/airbag safety bubble). Speaking of robustness and scale, even a set of tiny 205/55r16 tires on a Honda Fit will weigh 50,000g but your pair of bike tires is likely 500g. The car system weight is not 100x your body weight.
2019 Spec Venge 58cm <6.9kg target
- R9270, Quarq, i9.65, Look Xpro
2021 Canyon Speedmax Disc CF8 XL heavy
- R8000, P2M, SwissSide 62/80, Speedplay Aero

Retired:
2020 Pina Prince 59.5cm 7.4kg
2017 Cervélo P5 58cm heavy

Weber
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat May 15, 2021 11:21 am

by Weber

Hi all,

Adv tcr 2021, can someone tell me if the housing is missing or do they come like this? Left side of the bike.

Image

K4m1k4z3
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:33 pm

by K4m1k4z3

Weber wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:39 pm
Hi all,
Adv tcr 2021, can someone tell me if the housing is missing or do they come like this? Left side of the bike.
Missing. There's supposed to be a split rubber grommet similar to the one in the fork.
2018 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 1 Disc
2018 Specialized Epic HT Comp Carbon
2019 Specialized Diverge E5 Comp

Nickldn
Posts: 979
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

BigBoyND wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:45 am
darrydonds wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:21 am
Not sure what the difference could possibly be, other than the scale. The working principles and the physics should be the same.
To your point, the principles and physics are essentially the same, but the probabilities are not. Those make all the difference here.

Can you mount a car tire with a couple plastic levers? No.

Bike tires need to be far easier to get on. And for the same reason, they also come off easier. The beads on cars make sure they stay on without hooks by being very heavy, thick, and inflexible. That's fine since they are mounted with large hydraulic machines. Bike tire/wheel interface has very little margin to be both easy to mount and stay on when the tire suddenly goes flat. If the bead/wheel interface was such that it required a hydraulic press to mount, then sure it would be the same as a car.

This also compounds with the fact that car tires get flats less frequently and causes lower risk for injury when it does due to their robustness. The chances of rapid air loss are very low, tires coming off the rim even lower, loss of control before being able to stop even lower, and finally risk of injury in the event of a crash by all those things happening lower yet (it's a metal/airbag safety bubble). Speaking of robustness and scale, even a set of tiny 205/55r16 tires on a Honda Fit will weigh 50,000g but your pair of bike tires is likely 500g. The car system weight is not 100x your body weight.
One of the issues bicycle tyres have is that Kevlar beads stretch over time. That's probably fine with hooks, but means that tyres can blow off hookless rims more easily as they age. Poor tolerances in all but the best made tyres contributes to this as well.

So I think Giant's testing has value, but means you're restricted to a small number of tyres if you want to run higher pressures.

Obviously everyone can make up their own mind about this and 73 psi is fine for some people too, but if you run hookless don't for a minute think you're not an unpaid tester.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Yoeleo H10 bars 7.5kg

darrydonds
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:04 am

by darrydonds

BigBoyND wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:45 am
darrydonds wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:21 am
Not sure what the difference could possibly be, other than the scale. The working principles and the physics should be the same.
To your point, the principles and physics are essentially the same, but the probabilities are not. Those make all the difference here.

Can you mount a car tire with a couple plastic levers? No.

Bike tires need to be far easier to get on. And for the same reason, they also come off easier. The beads on cars make sure they stay on without hooks by being very heavy, thick, and inflexible. That's fine since they are mounted with large hydraulic machines. Bike tire/wheel interface has very little margin to be both easy to mount and stay on when the tire suddenly goes flat. If the bead/wheel interface was such that it required a hydraulic press to mount, then sure it would be the same as a car.

This also compounds with the fact that car tires get flats less frequently and causes lower risk for injury when it does due to their robustness. The chances of rapid air loss are very low, tires coming off the rim even lower, loss of control before being able to stop even lower, and finally risk of injury in the event of a crash by all those things happening lower yet (it's a metal/airbag safety bubble). Speaking of robustness and scale, even a set of tiny 205/55r16 tires on a Honda Fit will weigh 50,000g but your pair of bike tires is likely 500g. The car system weight is not 100x your body weight.
"Bike tires need to be far easier to get on. And for the same reason, they also come off easier."

Because the forces and stresses applied during normal usage are much much lower for bicycles.

Chances of "rapid" air loss, tires coming off, loss of control, etc. Do you have numbers? All of these can happen for both cars and bicycles, in freak accidents.

"The car system weight is not 100x your body weight."

But it accelerates/decelerates quicker, not to mention it might carry 3 other passengers, plus their bikes and camping equipments. ;-)

By the way, apparently, planes also use hookless.

At the end of the day, we are not experts who have all the numbers, testing data, required knowledge, etc. So it all comes down to whether you trust those who are, or you think they are just greedy businessmen who want consumers to be their crash-test dummies (which would be a very very dangerous and potentially costly scheme for the industry). To me, the risk/reward for the latter scenario is ridiculously high, when all they need is just better, more thorough testing; not to mention that it would have to be a multi-company conspiracy for a push for an unsafe design.

BigBoyND
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 1:51 am
Location: Seoul, KR

by BigBoyND

darrydonds wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:54 pm
Do the tire compatibility tests by wheel manufacturers count as data? When was the last time a car wheel mfg had a short list of tires that are compatible? Several wheel manufacturers are doing blowoff tests. Now the standard is 73psi and tires can blow off at 100 psi. If the safety margin is 20-30% that is nowhere near what it is for car or plane applications. I fully expect some non-geeks coming from their last tubed 21cm tires buying an entry level bike and putting 100psi in the tire.

Yes cars and planes use the same method but the design criteria are completely different. They also don't scale the way you're implying. Can we make a standard where all tubeless tires work with all hookless wheels with reasonable safety margins? Maybe but we're not there now. And it may require tires and wheels to be significantly heavier or impossible to mount by hand. Since those things aren't acceptable to consumers, we will probably stay near the edge of what is safe for 99% of cases. Then we decide for ourselves whether that is safe enough.
2019 Spec Venge 58cm <6.9kg target
- R9270, Quarq, i9.65, Look Xpro
2021 Canyon Speedmax Disc CF8 XL heavy
- R8000, P2M, SwissSide 62/80, Speedplay Aero

Retired:
2020 Pina Prince 59.5cm 7.4kg
2017 Cervélo P5 58cm heavy

darrydonds
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:04 am

by darrydonds

BigBoyND wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:07 am
darrydonds wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:54 pm
Do the tire compatibility tests by wheel manufacturers count as data? When was the last time a car wheel mfg had a short list of tires that are compatible? Several wheel manufacturers are doing blowoff tests. Now the standard is 73psi and tires can blow off at 100 psi. If the safety margin is 20-30% that is nowhere near what it is for car or plane applications. I fully expect some non-geeks coming from their last tubed 21cm tires buying an entry level bike and putting 100psi in the tire.

Yes cars and planes use the same method but the design criteria are completely different. They also don't scale the way you're implying. Can we make a standard where all tubeless tires work with all hookless wheels with reasonable safety margins? Maybe but we're not there now. And it may require tires and wheels to be significantly heavier or impossible to mount by hand. Since those things aren't acceptable to consumers, we will probably stay near the edge of what is safe for 99% of cases. Then we decide for ourselves whether that is safe enough.
"When was the last time a car wheel mfg had a short list of tires that are compatible?"

When was the last time car industry introduced new wheel design?

"I fully expect some non-geeks coming from their last tubed 21cm tires buying an entry level bike and putting 100psi in the tire."

I fully expect warning stickers on those hookless wheels. If all those non-geeks bought those expensive hookless rims, ignored the warnings and the max psi marking on the sidewall and ran on 100psi+ and then experienced major failure, I'd expect reports of it all over the internet and even some lawsuits.

My final point stands: either you trust that the industy did its due diligence and made sure the products are reasonably safe, or you believe there's a multi-company conspiracy to push for hookless when they don't know yet if it's safe enough for consumers.

"we will probably stay near the edge of what is safe for 99% of cases"

Practically nothing is totally safe for 100% of cases.

Nickldn
Posts: 979
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

darrydonds wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:11 pm
BigBoyND wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:07 am
darrydonds wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:54 pm
Do the tire compatibility tests by wheel manufacturers count as data? When was the last time a car wheel mfg had a short list of tires that are compatible? Several wheel manufacturers are doing blowoff tests. Now the standard is 73psi and tires can blow off at 100 psi. If the safety margin is 20-30% that is nowhere near what it is for car or plane applications. I fully expect some non-geeks coming from their last tubed 21cm tires buying an entry level bike and putting 100psi in the tire.

Yes cars and planes use the same method but the design criteria are completely different. They also don't scale the way you're implying. Can we make a standard where all tubeless tires work with all hookless wheels with reasonable safety margins? Maybe but we're not there now. And it may require tires and wheels to be significantly heavier or impossible to mount by hand. Since those things aren't acceptable to consumers, we will probably stay near the edge of what is safe for 99% of cases. Then we decide for ourselves whether that is safe enough.
"When was the last time a car wheel mfg had a short list of tires that are compatible?"

When was the last time car industry introduced new wheel design?

"I fully expect some non-geeks coming from their last tubed 21cm tires buying an entry level bike and putting 100psi in the tire."

I fully expect warning stickers on those hookless wheels. If all those non-geeks bought those expensive hookless rims, ignored the warnings and the max psi marking on the sidewall and ran on 100psi+ and then experienced major failure, I'd expect reports of it all over the internet and even some lawsuits.

My final point stands: either you trust that the industy did its due diligence and made sure the products are reasonably safe, or you believe there's a multi-company conspiracy to push for hookless when they don't know yet if it's safe enough for consumers.

"we will probably stay near the edge of what is safe for 99% of cases"

Practically nothing is totally safe for 100% of cases.
Lol, 73psi maximum hookless pressure is the maximum don't sue us - this is the limit of our industry liability - disclaimer.

As I have said before, if you as a customer are happy with max 73 psi then great, fill yourself with hookless and don't look back.

If not then you need to look at Giant and Cadex. They are trying to move hookless out of the 73psi ghetto.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Yoeleo H10 bars 7.5kg

BigBoyND
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 1:51 am
Location: Seoul, KR

by BigBoyND

darrydonds wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:11 pm
My final point stands: either you trust that the industy did its due diligence and made sure the products are reasonably safe, or you believe there's a multi-company conspiracy to push for hookless when they don't know yet if it's safe enough for consumers.

"we will probably stay near the edge of what is safe for 99% of cases"

Practically nothing is totally safe for 100% of cases.
There's a lot of simplification and extrapolation going on bere, both about product design and whether I've considered the things you're saying.

There's no conspiracy to push unsafe product, obviously. Clearly what's happening though, is that there isn't yet enough conspiracy to make them safe and compatible (i.e. creating a singular standard that everyone adheres to).

Again something about scale. There is a huge gap between 99% and 100% in the land of safety management. Nothing is 100% safe (didn't imply it should be) but 99% is unacceptable in almost all industries, which usually aim for 3-6 sigma confidence intervals depending on how they're defined. You're giving the general consumer too much credit, by the way. My wife bought a Trek road bike from a local Trek dealer earlier this year. Tire label om her 32mm Bonti tires clearly say 80psi max. Noticed it was at 100psi when we got home, pumped by a trained mechanic. Companies have to assume a certain level of negligence or ignorance by general consumers. I'm not saying they should design for 150psi, but blowing off road tires at 100 psi while riding should not be acceptable when consumers are used to that pressure and will not all read/follow the 73psi disclaimer.
2019 Spec Venge 58cm <6.9kg target
- R9270, Quarq, i9.65, Look Xpro
2021 Canyon Speedmax Disc CF8 XL heavy
- R8000, P2M, SwissSide 62/80, Speedplay Aero

Retired:
2020 Pina Prince 59.5cm 7.4kg
2017 Cervélo P5 58cm heavy

neomoz
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:38 am

by neomoz

Weber wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:39 pm
Hi all,

Adv tcr 2021, can someone tell me if the housing is missing or do they come like this? Left side of the bike.

Image
Check the bag you got with your bike, there should be a rubber grommit that fits in that hole, you can easily install it yourself. When I picked up my bike these weren't installed but I put them on myself. I see you have the one on the front fork already installed.

tunaseng
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:05 am

by tunaseng

Weber wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:39 pm
Hi all,

Adv tcr 2021, can someone tell me if the housing is missing or do they come like this? Left side of the bike.

Image
hijacking your photo. Apologies on that.

I have that grommet at the side but it cant seem to fit in a di2 cable and brake hose. How do you guys run your cables?

My bike is taking shape now. Still a little on the heavy side at 7.4kg (pedals, computer/gopro mount, bottle cages included)

What should I upgrade to further reduce? My setup as below.

1. Giant TCR advance pro 2021 size XS
2. SLR1 hookless with schwalbe TLE
3. Ultegra di2 50-34/11-28T R8070
4. Spesh inspired power saddle 135g with carbon rails
5. lightweight thru axle from ebay, cant remember the brand
6. Pro vibe aero carbon bar 38mm
7. OG-evkin computer mount
8. 18grams bontrager cages X 2 piece
9. Sigeyi RD hanger
10. 105 pedals
11. Ciclovation bar tape with pro vibe gel pads underneath

Feel the next weak link is the od2 stock contact SL stem 80mm. Any equivalent of the lightweight UNO stem that is budget friendly yet fits OD2 to reccomend?
Attachments
8473030D-ABAA-4BD6-B0F1-BB25AD614FC3.jpeg

Nickldn
Posts: 979
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

tunaseng wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:17 pm
Weber wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:39 pm
Hi all,

Adv tcr 2021, can someone tell me if the housing is missing or do they come like this? Left side of the bike.

Image
hijacking your photo. Apologies on that.

I have that grommet at the side but it cant seem to fit in a di2 cable and brake hose. How do you guys run your cables?

My bike is taking shape now. Still a little on the heavy side at 7.4kg (pedals, computer/gopro mount, bottle cages included)

What should I upgrade to further reduce? My setup as below.

1. Giant TCR advance pro 2021 size XS
2. SLR1 hookless with schwalbe TLE
3. Ultegra di2 50-34/11-28T R8070
4. Spesh inspired power saddle 135g with carbon rails
5. lightweight thru axle from ebay, cant remember the brand
6. Pro vibe aero carbon bar 38mm
7. OG-evkin computer mount
8. 18grams bontrager cages X 2 piece
9. Sigeyi RD hanger
10. 105 pedals
11. Ciclovation bar tape with pro vibe gel pads underneath

Feel the next weak link is the od2 stock contact SL stem 80mm. Any equivalent of the lightweight UNO stem that is budget friendly yet fits OD2 to reccomend?
The 105 pedals have to go, you need something incredibly light with titanium spindles.

Lighter disks maybe?

You could get a glue in fork expander, not sure if Giant still sell them, and titanium screws everywhere. Everywhere.

If you want to go to more effort a Yeoleo H10 integrated bar/stem (OD2 compatible).
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Yoeleo H10 bars 7.5kg

tunaseng
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:05 am

by tunaseng

Nickldn wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:02 pm
tunaseng wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:17 pm
Weber wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:39 pm
Hi all,

Adv tcr 2021, can someone tell me if the housing is missing or do they come like this? Left side of the bike.

Image
hijacking your photo. Apologies on that.

I have that grommet at the side but it cant seem to fit in a di2 cable and brake hose. How do you guys run your cables?

My bike is taking shape now. Still a little on the heavy side at 7.4kg (pedals, computer/gopro mount, bottle cages included)

What should I upgrade to further reduce? My setup as below.

1. Giant TCR advance pro 2021 size XS
2. SLR1 hookless with schwalbe TLE
3. Ultegra di2 50-34/11-28T R8070
4. Spesh inspired power saddle 135g with carbon rails
5. lightweight thru axle from ebay, cant remember the brand
6. Pro vibe aero carbon bar 38mm
7. OG-evkin computer mount
8. 18grams bontrager cages X 2 piece
9. Sigeyi RD hanger
10. 105 pedals
11. Ciclovation bar tape with pro vibe gel pads underneath

Feel the next weak link is the od2 stock contact SL stem 80mm. Any equivalent of the lightweight UNO stem that is budget friendly yet fits OD2 to reccomend?
The 105 pedals have to go, you need something incredibly light with titanium spindles.

Lighter disks maybe?

You could get a glue in fork expander, not sure if Giant still sell them, and titanium screws everywhere. Everywhere.

If you want to go to more effort a Yeoleo H10 integrated bar/stem (OD2 compatible).
Thanks for the reply. Any reccomendations on the ti spindle pedals?

I am looking at the xtr disc so that might be a good way to lose some weight over the ultegra discs.

Fork expander by Giant? never heard of that though.. any picture?

The yeoleo H10 doesnt come in 80mm stem... my short arms arent gonna make it .

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply