Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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tomato
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by tomato

MikeD wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:47 pm
tomato wrote:
cveks wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:23 am
Of course they want to sell disc brakes because they earn ton more with groupsets. Look SRAM Rival comparision I put in place. Whole groupset with rim brakes costs 390 without taxes on bike24. Only Rival shifters for discs costs 470 euro on same shop site.
A higher price does not necessarily mean higher profit.
Tell that to Apple.
I called Tim Cook to let him know. He told me that the profit margins and total profits are higher on iPhones ($500 - $1,000) than they are on MacBook Pros ($1,300 - $6,700) and MacPros ($6,000 - $54,000). Maybe you can ring him up and straighten him out.

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MoPho
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by MoPho

MikeD wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:57 pm


Brake cables last many years and, unlike derailleur cables, don't need to be changed annually.

Disc pads wear about 5x as fast as rim brake pads. Brakes need to be bled occasionally. Calipers need to be recentered because of rubbing. Rotors warp and wear. There is a lot more maintenance required of disc brakes than rim brakes. Got a leak in the hydraulics? Much more complicated and expensive to repair.
Brake cables stretch and corrode and should be replaced with the housing annually(ish) if you want them to work their best. My last rim brake bike ate through brake cables and housings, needed to be replaced several times a year. At the bike shop, a brake bleed often cost less than replacing cables and housings (which also required a new bar tape job). And you don't have to do a bleed annually either.
My rim brake bike needed to have the calipers recentered often because of rubbing. Rotors "warp" and wear, rims bend and wear. Rotors are much cheaper to replace (and can be straighted too). Break a spoke on a rim brake bike and you are walking home or riding with no brakes, disc brake you might not even notice the broken spoke for a while. And BTW, people confuse the disc brake noise from heat expansion after hard use as warping. Been on road disc for 5 years and have never had any "warping".
Yeah, Disc brake pads do wear out a bit faster, but no where near 5x faster as you claim, and they are easier to replace than rim brake pads. I've only had to replace the
rotors once from wearing them out. No big deal. Ooh, leaking hydraulics, you got me there. Never had it happen in 5 years of hard use. The maybe two leaks I saw at the bike shop were warranty replacement
Regardless, the point was in response to the suggestion that disc brakes are not easily serviceable by the owner, that is just not true at all, and again, if you incapable of doing the work on disc brakes you can't do the work on rim brakes either. If you think that disc brakes are complicated and difficult to deal with, then perhaps you qualify as the incapable type. Stop exaggerating and purveying bullshit!

MikeD
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

MoPho wrote:
MikeD wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:57 pm


Brake cables last many years and, unlike derailleur cables, don't need to be changed annually.

Disc pads wear about 5x as fast as rim brake pads. Brakes need to be bled occasionally. Calipers need to be recentered because of rubbing. Rotors warp and wear. There is a lot more maintenance required of disc brakes than rim brakes. Got a leak in the hydraulics? Much more complicated and expensive to repair.
Brake cables stretch and corrode and should be replaced with the housing annually(ish) if you want them to work their best. My last rim brake bike ate through brake cables and housings, needed to be replaced several times a year. At the bike shop, a brake bleed often cost less than replacing cables and housings (which also required a new bar tape job). And you don't have to do a bleed annually either.
My rim brake bike needed to have the calipers recentered often because of rubbing. Rotors "warp" and wear, rims bend and wear. Rotors are much cheaper to replace (and can be straighted too). Break a spoke on a rim brake bike and you are walking home or riding with no brakes, disc brake you might not even notice the broken spoke for a while. And BTW, people confuse the disc brake noise from heat expansion after hard use as warping. Been on road disc for 5 years and have never had any "warping".
Yeah, Disc brake pads do wear out a bit faster, but no where near 5x faster as you claim, and they are easier to replace than rim brake pads. I've only had to replace the
rotors once from wearing them out. No big deal. Ooh, leaking hydraulics, you got me there. Never had it happen in 5 years of hard use. The maybe two leaks I saw at the bike shop were warranty replacement
Regardless, the point was in response to the suggestion that disc brakes are not easily serviceable by the owner, that is just not true at all, and again, if you incapable of doing the work on disc brakes you can't do the work on rim brakes either. If you think that disc brakes are complicated and difficult to deal with, then perhaps you qualify as the incapable type. Stop exaggerating and purveying bullshit!
What a pile of verbal diarrhea. Steel cables don't permanently stretch. Stainless cables don't corrode and everyone uses stainless cables except on crap bikes, which makes everything else you wrote about rim brakes suspect.
Last edited by MikeD on Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

MoPho wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:04 pm
MikeD wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:57 pm


Brake cables last many years and, unlike derailleur cables, don't need to be changed annually.

Disc pads wear about 5x as fast as rim brake pads. Brakes need to be bled occasionally. Calipers need to be recentered because of rubbing. Rotors warp and wear. There is a lot more maintenance required of disc brakes than rim brakes. Got a leak in the hydraulics? Much more complicated and expensive to repair.
Brake cables stretch and corrode and should be replaced with the housing annually(ish) if you want them to work their best. My last rim brake bike ate through brake cables and housings, needed to be replaced several times a year. At the bike shop, a brake bleed often cost less than replacing cables and housings (which also required a new bar tape job). And you don't have to do a bleed annually either.
My rim brake bike needed to have the calipers recentered often because of rubbing. Rotors "warp" and wear, rims bend and wear. Rotors are much cheaper to replace (and can be straighted too). Break a spoke on a rim brake bike and you are walking home or riding with no brakes, disc brake you might not even notice the broken spoke for a while. And BTW, people confuse the disc brake noise from heat expansion after hard use as warping. Been on road disc for 5 years and have never had any "warping".
Yeah, Disc brake pads do wear out a bit faster, but no where near 5x faster as you claim, and they are easier to replace than rim brake pads. I've only had to replace the
rotors once from wearing them out. No big deal. Ooh, leaking hydraulics, you got me there. Never had it happen in 5 years of hard use. The maybe two leaks I saw at the bike shop were warranty replacement
Regardless, the point was in response to the suggestion that disc brakes are not easily serviceable by the owner, that is just not true at all, and again, if you incapable of doing the work on disc brakes you can't do the work on rim brakes either. If you think that disc brakes are complicated and difficult to deal with, then perhaps you qualify as the incapable type. Stop exaggerating and purveying bullshit!
No that is not true either. Even retailers says it's way more hassle to service integrated bikes and also report issues with hydraulics compared to wired brakes.
One retailer told me they sponsor a few guys, one of them rode a complete race with his disc caliper damaged/ faulty, so the brake drag was almost current all the race. There has also been issues with pistons and leaking components.
I'm not against disc brakes. But i do agree that rim brakes make more sense on a bike for good weather.
It's not so easy just to say one is crap and the other isn't. It's not black or white.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

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cveks
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by cveks

MoPho wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:49 am
cveks wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:23 am

Of course they want to sell disc brakes because they earn ton more with groupsets. Look SRAM Rival comparision I put in place. Whole groupset with rim brakes costs 390 without taxes on bike24. Only Rival shifters for discs costs 470 euro on same shop site.
As was already pointed out to you the first time you posted this nonsense, just because something is more expensive doesn't mean there is more profit
Additionally, it's called supply and demand, no one is buying rim brakes so perhaps they are selling at a discount.
Furthermore, I just looked up the difference in price for Sram Rival here, full groupset, disc is only $117 more expensive than the rim brake version. Just for the brake levers/shifter it is roughly the same price.

One major advantage of rim brakes over disc brakes is also servicability .

Rim brakes are easy to service by any rider - disc brakes are not.
My disc brakes are easy to service, in fact I don't have to do much regular service to them besides clean them and change brake pads, just like rim brakes.
If you can't do the once a year brake bleed, you are not capable of changing the once a year brake cable either. And having worked at a bike shop, you would be surprised at how many people can't service their rim brakes.
One guy had broken handlebar with bike with disc brakes . He charged him more than 150 euros to change handlebar, install everything back.

For rim brakes you just remove shifters on side of bike together with cables put handlebar back and install shifters easily again. More practical and easy to use.
He charges that because of internal routing not because of disc brakes. My disc bikes don't have internal routing, changing the bars is exactly the same as changing with a rim brake bike.
Thats not true. I messured all parts and difference is 500-650 grams depending which system and discs do you use.
My friend had a near identical TCR rim brake to my disc brake version, he had zipp wheels and I had Enve (which were heavier), the difference between them was 360g. My empty coffee mug weighs 402g, can barely feel the weight of it when I pick it up! if that amount of weight is holding you back you've got bigger problems
Simply reason was that on that route they have ridden , with ton of climbs rim brakes are far more superior.
In your mind perhaps
if UCI change weight limit rule to 5.8 kg nobody on pro peloton would ride discs , if they have option to choose - because weight difference would be much higher. But most guys in pro peloton ride discs simply because they dont have any other option anymore. Like Team Jumbo Visma. Their Cervelo's are now disc brakes only.
Well seeing how most ride disc already, and soon all will, no one will be at a "disadvantage" to the "superior" rim brake now will they? :roll:
And lowering the weight limit isn't going to make racing any more exciting, so what would be the point except for you anti-dixxers to say "nanny nanny boo boo"?




.
Yeah 360-460-560 grams is nothing. Its just one coffee mug. Thats why we pay 5 times more for Dura Ace vs. Tiagra to save one coffee mug weight. But believe me that weight caunts. On flat, and climbs especially. Thats why all good riders always like to have light bike.

Thats why I will never buy disc brake bike and will be forever in same team with Chris Froom, Carapaz, Pogacar. I tried them I know all their pros and cons, and rim brakes offers much more for my money.

Because I am know what is best for me , and that is rim brake. I can build almost 2 rim brake bikes for price of one disc brake , which in same time weight less. Reason for that is price of hydraulic groupsets is usually 2 times bigger than rim brake counterparts.

Recently I bought Sensah Empire Groupset from China. Weight of groupset is almost as Ultegra but price cost is like 3 times less money.

It works great, uses same SRAM technology of cable pulls and shifters, and you can mix their shifters with Sram road gear.

Bikes need to be cheaper not more expensive. Cycling is sport for everyone not for just rich people.

Thats why we need rim brakes.

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cveks
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by cveks

tomato wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:13 am
cveks wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:23 am
Of course they want to sell disc brakes because they earn ton more with groupsets. Look SRAM Rival comparision I put in place. Whole groupset with rim brakes costs 390 without taxes on bike24. Only Rival shifters for discs costs 470 euro on same shop site.
A higher price does not necessarily mean higher profit.
Ooh but it does. Thats why they hire marketing teams to convince us that something more expensive is much better than something cheap. Thats why they pay to pro peloton teams to ride discs.

So that average Joe who wishes to have everything what Alaphillipe have, thinking that will make him better, buy that gear and not something else.

But in reality especially in cycling is different. Gear matter like 3%. 97% is fitness and training. Watts counts.

Thats why I beat guys on top end bikes with top gear , on hill Strava segments with my 10 kg cyclocross . I simply produce more watts per kg than they do , even if my bike have off road tires and weights 30% more.

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cveks
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by cveks

wheelsONfire wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:51 pm
MoPho wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:04 pm
MikeD wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:57 pm


Brake cables last many years and, unlike derailleur cables, don't need to be changed annually.

Disc pads wear about 5x as fast as rim brake pads. Brakes need to be bled occasionally. Calipers need to be recentered because of rubbing. Rotors warp and wear. There is a lot more maintenance required of disc brakes than rim brakes. Got a leak in the hydraulics? Much more complicated and expensive to repair.
Brake cables stretch and corrode and should be replaced with the housing annually(ish) if you want them to work their best. My last rim brake bike ate through brake cables and housings, needed to be replaced several times a year. At the bike shop, a brake bleed often cost less than replacing cables and housings (which also required a new bar tape job). And you don't have to do a bleed annually either.
My rim brake bike needed to have the calipers recentered often because of rubbing. Rotors "warp" and wear, rims bend and wear. Rotors are much cheaper to replace (and can be straighted too). Break a spoke on a rim brake bike and you are walking home or riding with no brakes, disc brake you might not even notice the broken spoke for a while. And BTW, people confuse the disc brake noise from heat expansion after hard use as warping. Been on road disc for 5 years and have never had any "warping".
Yeah, Disc brake pads do wear out a bit faster, but no where near 5x faster as you claim, and they are easier to replace than rim brake pads. I've only had to replace the
rotors once from wearing them out. No big deal. Ooh, leaking hydraulics, you got me there. Never had it happen in 5 years of hard use. The maybe two leaks I saw at the bike shop were warranty replacement
Regardless, the point was in response to the suggestion that disc brakes are not easily serviceable by the owner, that is just not true at all, and again, if you incapable of doing the work on disc brakes you can't do the work on rim brakes either. If you think that disc brakes are complicated and difficult to deal with, then perhaps you qualify as the incapable type. Stop exaggerating and purveying bullshit!
No that is not true either. Even retailers says it's way more hassle to service integrated bikes and also report issues with hydraulics compared to wired brakes.
One retailer told me they sponsor a few guys, one of them rode a complete race with his disc caliper damaged/ faulty, so the brake drag was almost current all the race. There has also been issues with pistons and leaking components.
I'm not against disc brakes. But i do agree that rim brakes make more sense on a bike for good weather.
It's not so easy just to say one is crap and the other isn't. It's not black or white.
You are right.

Integrated cables are nightmare for servicing and very problematic. Ask any mechanic.

I dont say that discs suck completely.

But rim brakes are better, cheaper and more reliable on long run. They give best bang for buck.

And that is very important thing in cycling. Not all of us have 10.000 euros to spend on new pro peloton weight disc brake bike.

Most people I know can spent on road bike from 600 euros to 2000. And in this category rim brakes are best choice.

Most of us simply dont want to spend 10.000 euros to get 7 kg bike.

But we can find alternative, get cheap chinese climbing frameset, and build around it some cheap rim brake groupset, put on it some light great wheels like Kinlin XR200 which weights just 1290 grams and have lighter , faster and more agile bike for 5 times less money.

blutto
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

MoPho wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:04 pm


Brake cables stretch and corrode and should be replaced with the housing annually(ish)

My rim brake bike needed to have the calipers recentered often because of rubbing.

Break a spoke on a rim brake bike and you are walking home or riding with no brakes,

Stop exaggerating and purveying bullshit!
To the first point....here is a thought, install some quality cables, which are usually stainless....mine generally last years and as we all know rust never sleeps ( read, mileage is not as big an issue as time )...

To the second pint....here is a thought, learn how to mount your wheels straight, or use wheels that are straight or at the very least consistently off....

To the third point.....here is a thought, learn what the quick release feature on the brakes is for...its there for a couple of reasons, dealing with warped wheels is one of them....and furthermore, take a close look at your bike, you will notice it comes with two completely separate brake assemblies, so one bad wheel even in the worse circumstances will not, as you stated, leave you without brakes...

And to the fourth point ....yeah absolutely great point....

Cheers
Last edited by blutto on Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Lina
Posts: 199
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

wheelsONfire wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:51 pm
MoPho wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:04 pm
MikeD wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:57 pm


Brake cables last many years and, unlike derailleur cables, don't need to be changed annually.

Disc pads wear about 5x as fast as rim brake pads. Brakes need to be bled occasionally. Calipers need to be recentered because of rubbing. Rotors warp and wear. There is a lot more maintenance required of disc brakes than rim brakes. Got a leak in the hydraulics? Much more complicated and expensive to repair.
Brake cables stretch and corrode and should be replaced with the housing annually(ish) if you want them to work their best. My last rim brake bike ate through brake cables and housings, needed to be replaced several times a year. At the bike shop, a brake bleed often cost less than replacing cables and housings (which also required a new bar tape job). And you don't have to do a bleed annually either.
My rim brake bike needed to have the calipers recentered often because of rubbing. Rotors "warp" and wear, rims bend and wear. Rotors are much cheaper to replace (and can be straighted too). Break a spoke on a rim brake bike and you are walking home or riding with no brakes, disc brake you might not even notice the broken spoke for a while. And BTW, people confuse the disc brake noise from heat expansion after hard use as warping. Been on road disc for 5 years and have never had any "warping".
Yeah, Disc brake pads do wear out a bit faster, but no where near 5x faster as you claim, and they are easier to replace than rim brake pads. I've only had to replace the
rotors once from wearing them out. No big deal. Ooh, leaking hydraulics, you got me there. Never had it happen in 5 years of hard use. The maybe two leaks I saw at the bike shop were warranty replacement
Regardless, the point was in response to the suggestion that disc brakes are not easily serviceable by the owner, that is just not true at all, and again, if you incapable of doing the work on disc brakes you can't do the work on rim brakes either. If you think that disc brakes are complicated and difficult to deal with, then perhaps you qualify as the incapable type. Stop exaggerating and purveying bullshit!
No that is not true either. Even retailers says it's way more hassle to service integrated bikes and also report issues with hydraulics compared to wired brakes.
One retailer told me they sponsor a few guys, one of them rode a complete race with his disc caliper damaged/ faulty, so the brake drag was almost current all the race. There has also been issues with pistons and leaking components.
I'm not against disc brakes. But i do agree that rim brakes make more sense on a bike for good weather.
It's not so easy just to say one is crap and the other isn't. It's not black or white.
Bikes being difficult to work on is the fault of integration, not disc brakes. If you buy a fully integrated disc brake bike and it's difficult to work on don't blame disc brakes. Blame the integration. All of the maintenance issues go away as soon as you drop the full integration.

MoPho
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal

by MoPho

MikeD wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:38 pm

What a pile of verbal diarrhea.
Pot to kettle

MoPho
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal

by MoPho

wheelsONfire wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:51 pm




No that is not true either. Even retailers says it's way more hassle to service integrated bikes and also report issues with hydraulics compared to wired brakes.
One retailer told me they sponsor a few guys, one of them rode a complete race with his disc caliper damaged/ faulty, so the brake drag was almost current all the race. There has also been issues with pistons and leaking components.
I'm not against disc brakes. But i do agree that rim brakes make more sense on a bike for good weather.
It's not so easy just to say one is crap and the other isn't. It's not black or white.

As I already noted, integration is a design option and is not required with disc brakes.
And one guy having problems does not mean they are all bad. You can find failures on anything

MoPho
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal

by MoPho

cveks wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:44 pm

Yeah 360-460-560 grams is nothing. Its just one coffee mug. Thats why we pay 5 times more for Dura Ace vs. Tiagra to save one coffee mug weight. But believe me that weight caunts. On flat, and climbs especially. Thats why all good riders always like to have light bike.

As you note, marketing is why you pay 5 times more for Dura Ace. You don't need a light bike, unless your paycheck comes from winning races, the weight doesn't count. You only think you need to save weight because you have been told by decades of marketing. Pros are just as susceptable to this as amateurs. I've seen a guy smoke many of the hotshoe racers up a climb in Los Angeles while riding a 30+ pound walmart special hybrid bike while jean shorts and work boots.
Ooh but it does. Thats why they hire marketing teams to convince us that something more expensive is much better than something cheap. Thats why they pay to pro peloton teams to ride discs.
They pay the pros to ride a lot of things, not just disc.

But in reality especially in cycling is different. Gear matter like 3%. 97% is fitness and training. Watts counts...
...Thats why I beat guys on top end bikes with top gear , on hill Strava segments with my 10 kg cyclocross . I simply produce more watts per kg than they do , even if my bike have off road tires and weights 30% more.
So then enough with the BS arguments about disc brakes being a "disadvantage", clearly it makes no difference

You can argue all you want about cost, but that is not really relevent to the discussion, the same could be said of many parts, not just disc brakes. If you need to save money, there are plenty of options out there, including buying used older bikes that are still excellent. And in a few years there will be plenty of inexpensive disc brake bikes too.
Last edited by MoPho on Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MoPho
Posts: 758
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Location: NorCal

by MoPho

blutto wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:03 pm


To the first point....here is a thought, install some quality cables, which are usually stainless....mine generally last years and as we all know rust never sleeps ( read, mileage is not as big an issue as time )...
Yawn, rode rim brakes for 25 years, and I have been on disc for 5 now, had plenty of issues with rim brakes over the years and the difference in maintenance is not much. But if that little difference is too much for you to handle, well that is your problem. :noidea:
To the second pint....here is a thought, learn how to mount your wheels straight, or use wheels that are straight or at the very least consistently off....
Here's a thought, don't be condescending. Ever break a spoke? Hit a pothole and bend a wheel? Nothing to do with how the wheel is mounted.
To the third point.....here is a thought, learn what the quick release feature on the brakes is for...its there for a couple of reasons, dealing with warped wheels is one of them....and furthermore, take a close look at your bike, you will notice it comes with two completely seperate brake assemblies, so one bad wheel even in the worse circumstances will not, as you stated, leave you without brakes...
When I said "you are walking home or riding with no brakes" I was referring to the quick release, because you effectively have no brakes when you open the QR. And yes, I did break a spoke and had a rim bend enough so that it would not turn even with the QR open.
Meanwhile, I've broken spokes a few times on disc and had no issue riding it home, in fact one time I thought a rock bounced off my frame and it turned out I had broke a spoke on my rear wheel, rode it for several hundred miles before I noticed it.
That said, you can also bend the wheel enough it won't clear the frame, and you can crash and bend a disc rotor too, but my comment was in response to the point about disc warping, you guys continue to pretend as if rim brakes are immune from problems, they are not.

MikeD
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

Forget it guys, MoPho always gets in the last word and will ultimately wear you down with the tomes he writes to the point where one's eyes glaze over and you just say, eff it, I've got better things to do.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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MoPho
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal

by MoPho

MikeD wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:13 pm
Forget it guys, MoPho always gets in the last word and will ultimately wear you down with the tomes he writes to the point where one's eyes glaze over and you just say, eff it, I've got better things to do.

Says the guy who can't stop whining and constantly spreading ignorant BS about disc brakes. I don't start these discussions, you guys couldn't even make it a f##king week without making another thread crying about it. Whaaaaa!!

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