S-works Roubaix Team Frame Geometry questions

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

alanyu
Posts: 637
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

RDY wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:24 am
pmprego wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:21 am
RDY wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:15 am
wheelsONfire wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:24 pm
A bike with super short stem will not handle as well. I will never understand why people buy bike with super short stems or with 25-30mm of spacers.
Or adjust saddle to reach the bars. It's like being hellbent to buy a specific brand and a specific model at all cost!
There are frames that actually fit :D
The shorter the stem the more direct steering is and the better it handles. You're completely mixed up. The longer the stem, the slower and more indirect it is.

Why do you think MTBs for use on technical stuff, DH and BMX and trials bikes have such short stems? Touring or old school city bikes have long stems.

If you want something that handles better and you don't mind a little more weight, sizing up and shortening the stem is generally a much better idea, as long as standover doesn't become an issue.
I didn't know so I went and asked google:
"How fast does a mountain biker go?

Average speed for a mountain biker ≈ 10 mph (16 kph) during singletrack riding. Uphill sections average ≈ 8 mph (13 kph) with downhill sections averaging ≈ 12 mph (19 kph).

Average speed of an e-MTB on singletrack - 13 mph (21 kph)

The overall average speed for pro/semi-pro cross-country mountain bikers is ≈ 9 mph (14.5 kph)

The average speed is ≈ 17 mph (27 kph) with peak speeds upwards of 30 mph (48 kph) during downhill mountain bike riding."

Based on that, I guess this is a reason why roadies use longer stems. Average speeds are much higher. In a peloton becomes way more unstable.
A long stem doesn't really add to stability. It just slows down steering. Bar width is about stability. Also, on descents (where the real speed is), 'pitching yourself further fore isn't always the best idea. P.S. Crit racers and track cyclists tend to use very short stems too.
That's MTB where bar width dominates. Roady is totally different where stem length, bar reach, hoods reach and bar width cooperates. Moreover, I won't consider what stem Matthijs Büchli used in his championships as short.

LeboRaptor
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:08 am

by LeboRaptor

Alexbn921 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:00 am
What size stem did you use in your fit to find frame reach?

I like the look of a taller headtube with a negative stem and no spacers vs a positive stem and spacers.

At your height and it sounds like you want a lower front end I might downsize to the 56 and get a 120mm stem. If 120 is to short, then size up.

The future shock sags about 5-7mm so don’t forget to factor that in too. Roubaix is underrated. I love mine and the way it keeps me comfortable is amazing. The handling is right up there with the best too.
Sorry I thought I added that info. I also just found out that there is no 57cm available right now only 59cm.

Not sure what to do now. Maybe look for another bike.
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by Weenie


DaveS
Posts: 3050
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm

by DaveS

Lots of confusion here. It's not that complicated. Total stack is the frame stack, plus the headset top and spacers, plus the rise from the stem. If a -6 stem is used instead of a -17, it will raise the bars about 2cm. I just bought a frame with a 20mm shorter stack than I have now, but all I need to do is use a -6 stem instead of a -17 and I'll still have a no spacer setup.

Reach is a combination of the frame reach, the stem reach, the bar reach and the brake hood reach, so there are several items that can be lengthened or shortened to produce the desired reach to the brake hoods and hooks. Stem length and bar reach for me is a 100 or 110 stem and an 80mm reach bar. I see Trek making what I think of as bad choices, selling a new bike with an 80mm stem and 100mm reach bars. That makes it more likely that the rider will hit the bars with his knees when riding out of the saddle. Either of those setups will produce the same steering arm length, if the bar width is the same. I select bar width based on what feels most comfortble for me and I prefer a 38cm, since I'm a smaller rider. I've run 40mm too.

It's the steering arm length that really matters and that's a line from the center of the top cap to the the point of hand contact on the brake hood or hooks. There are many combinations of bar reach and stem length that will produce the same steering arm length. A shorter steering arm length has less leverage, but also requires less of movement of the bars, so it will make for a quicker feel. Whatever the steering arm length is does no change the bike's handling, it just requires the rider to become accustomed to the feel. If you have multiple bikes, you would probably want a similar steering arm length on each one, unless there are also differences in the trail. I personally don't care for a criterium oriented 56-58mm trail. I like my Colnago geometry with more trail, Particularly with the small frames I ride. Lower trails may be preferred by riders of larger frames.

Mr.Gib
Posts: 3925
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

181 cm tall? You don't want a 59 anything. And not a 58 either. A tradition geo 57 could be OK. At your size you should ride a 56 in most modern geo road bikes. I think there is something wrong with that Retul fit. How does someone your height with a 90 cm inseam have anything left to reach the bars on a 59 frame? Unless you have silly long arm (knuckles drag on the ground when you walk) you will be looking at a baby stem. I am 183 with 87 inseam, longish torso and super long arms. I can handle the reach on any 58 frame with a 120 stem, I still prefer a 56 with 130 or 140 stem.

If you are contemplating a larger frame only because the front end is taller, then you are looking at the wrong bike. As noted, there are plenty of bikes that will fit.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

RDY
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

Mr.Gib wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:50 pm
181 cm tall? You don't want a 59 anything. And not a 58 either. A tradition geo 57 could be OK. At your size you should ride a 56 in most modern geo road bikes. I think there is something wrong with that Retul fit. How does someone your height with a 90 cm inseam have anything left to reach the bars on a 59 frame? Unless you have silly long arm (knuckles drag on the ground when you walk) you will be looking at a baby stem. I am 183 with 87 inseam, longish torso and super long arms. I can handle the reach on any 58 frame with a 120 stem, I still prefer a 56 with 130 or 140 stem.

If you are contemplating a larger frame only because the front end is taller, then you are looking at the wrong bike. As noted, there are plenty of bikes that will fit.
Going up a size doesn't add a lot of reach. It does add significant stack. 90 inseam and 181 is very long legs relative to height. Taking the smaller frame would mean a lot more saddle to bar drop. Unless you're a pro, you're probably not buying this frame to be super aero ... you're going for comfort. It's easier to compensate for long legs and short upper body with a shorter stem.

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 3856
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

RDY wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:24 am
pmprego wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:21 am
RDY wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:15 am
wheelsONfire wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:24 pm
A bike with super short stem will not handle as well. I will never understand why people buy bike with super short stems or with 25-30mm of spacers.
Or adjust saddle to reach the bars. It's like being hellbent to buy a specific brand and a specific model at all cost!
There are frames that actually fit :D
The shorter the stem the more direct steering is and the better it handles. You're completely mixed up. The longer the stem, the slower and more indirect it is.

Why do you think MTBs for use on technical stuff, DH and BMX and trials bikes have such short stems? Touring or old school city bikes have long stems.

If you want something that handles better and you don't mind a little more weight, sizing up and shortening the stem is generally a much better idea, as long as standover doesn't become an issue.
I didn't know so I went and asked google:
"How fast does a mountain biker go?

Average speed for a mountain biker ≈ 10 mph (16 kph) during singletrack riding. Uphill sections average ≈ 8 mph (13 kph) with downhill sections averaging ≈ 12 mph (19 kph).

Average speed of an e-MTB on singletrack - 13 mph (21 kph)

The overall average speed for pro/semi-pro cross-country mountain bikers is ≈ 9 mph (14.5 kph)

The average speed is ≈ 17 mph (27 kph) with peak speeds upwards of 30 mph (48 kph) during downhill mountain bike riding."

Based on that, I guess this is a reason why roadies use longer stems. Average speeds are much higher. In a peloton becomes way more unstable.
A long stem doesn't really add to stability. It just slows down steering. Bar width is about stability. Also, on descents (where the real speed is), 'pitching yourself further fore isn't always the best idea. P.S. Crit racers and track cyclists tend to use very short stems too.
A super short stem isn't good. Neither is a super long if it means you move to much forward on your bike.
Road bike are often fast steering, which is good if you ride slow. But if you ride in winds (cross or swirl) and have a bike that is heavily affect by the wind or if a lorry pass you by and you start to wiggle, it isn't funny. This becomes even worse if you ride deep rim wheels.
I understand what you say talking MTB, but that is not at all on the same basis. You can't compare riding MTB and road bike!
What i mean is you should have a bike with proper measurements, for your saddle and handlebar position on your given size frame.
Weight balance that is correct makes the bike way more fun to ride. You also feel more in control!
You shouldn't have a bike that is so fast steering it becomes unstable. The bikes (frames are more correct) today are often too low and too long.
Many buy a race bike to have that race feel and it looks cool. But many will fit better on an endurance bike which might not have the same feel.
You could really have an endurance geo and a racier feel bike. The best of both worlds!

If peple had a chance to actually try bikes, a race bike with too much spacer and a too short stem.
An endurance bike or a third bike that has both the size they need but with a racier feel, then you got a better compromise.
But this isn't "trendy". If you should talk to a few open minded bikefitters i think you would here a thing or two.

I think Cervelo tried to keep a geo they knew suiting the mass better. The better decision for folks would be stop being stuck in trends and brands.
Get the frame that suits you best for best handling. In the long run i bet this is more rewarding as it will be a better handling bike.

I know this isn't happening and that's the sadest thing!
Last edited by wheelsONfire on Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

pmprego
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

RDY wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:45 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:50 pm
181 cm tall? You don't want a 59 anything. And not a 58 either. A tradition geo 57 could be OK. At your size you should ride a 56 in most modern geo road bikes. I think there is something wrong with that Retul fit. How does someone your height with a 90 cm inseam have anything left to reach the bars on a 59 frame? Unless you have silly long arm (knuckles drag on the ground when you walk) you will be looking at a baby stem. I am 183 with 87 inseam, longish torso and super long arms. I can handle the reach on any 58 frame with a 120 stem, I still prefer a 56 with 130 or 140 stem.

If you are contemplating a larger frame only because the front end is taller, then you are looking at the wrong bike. As noted, there are plenty of bikes that will fit.
Going up a size doesn't add a lot of reach. It does add significant stack. 90 inseam and 181 is very long legs relative to height. Taking the smaller frame would mean a lot more saddle to bar drop. Unless you're a pro, you're probably not buying this frame to be super aero ... you're going for comfort. It's easier to compensate for long legs and short upper body with a shorter stem.
Careful with st angle. Most likely the bigger size has a slacker angle bringing the rider backwards.


@Wheelsonfire I guess you are referring to caledónia. Very nice geo for the average guy (myself included). But then it has other stuff like proprietary parts that puts me off.

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 3856
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

^
There are a few bikes, my best option as for geometry is what i have.
I put that as prio 1. I'd even like to go custom like Wyndymilla or Exept bikes, with a very similar geometry.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

LeboRaptor
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:08 am

by LeboRaptor

So after visiting a few bike shops today. 58cm seems too large for me and the S-works Roubaix team frame is not available anymore in 57cm. So looks like I am heading towards an S-works Tarmac SL7. Will go test riding some next week.
Mr.Gib wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:50 pm
181 cm tall? You don't want a 59 anything. And not a 58 either. A tradition geo 57 could be OK. At your size you should ride a 56 in most modern geo road bikes. I think there is something wrong with that Retul fit. How does someone your height with a 90 cm inseam have anything left to reach the bars on a 59 frame? Unless you have silly long arm (knuckles drag on the ground when you walk) you will be looking at a baby stem. I am 183 with 87 inseam, longish torso and super long arms. I can handle the reach on any 58 frame with a 120 stem, I still prefer a 56 with 130 or 140 stem.

If you are contemplating a larger frame only because the front end is taller, then you are looking at the wrong bike. As noted, there are plenty of bikes that will fit.

RDY
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

pmprego wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:51 pm
RDY wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:45 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:50 pm
181 cm tall? You don't want a 59 anything. And not a 58 either. A tradition geo 57 could be OK. At your size you should ride a 56 in most modern geo road bikes. I think there is something wrong with that Retul fit. How does someone your height with a 90 cm inseam have anything left to reach the bars on a 59 frame? Unless you have silly long arm (knuckles drag on the ground when you walk) you will be looking at a baby stem. I am 183 with 87 inseam, longish torso and super long arms. I can handle the reach on any 58 frame with a 120 stem, I still prefer a 56 with 130 or 140 stem.

If you are contemplating a larger frame only because the front end is taller, then you are looking at the wrong bike. As noted, there are plenty of bikes that will fit.
Going up a size doesn't add a lot of reach. It does add significant stack. 90 inseam and 181 is very long legs relative to height. Taking the smaller frame would mean a lot more saddle to bar drop. Unless you're a pro, you're probably not buying this frame to be super aero ... you're going for comfort. It's easier to compensate for long legs and short upper body with a shorter stem.
Careful with st angle. Most likely the bigger size has a slacker angle bringing the rider backwards.


@Wheelsonfire I guess you are referring to caledónia. Very nice geo for the average guy (myself included). But then it has other stuff like proprietary parts that puts me off.

In my experience the top 2-3 sizes on less racy frames tend to keep the same ST angle. Occasionally half a degree difference, but increasingly rare these days.

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