Shimano Di2

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rustychain
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by rustychain

I have no issue with Di2 (yes I tried it and yes I can afford it, that is just a stupid stupid argument) just with the overboard claims to the systems that exist today. I can't say what the future will bring. If advancements in function result, all is good. The idea that cables are somehow obsolete is at this time is not based in facts nor based on sound engineering. Di2 may very well present intriguing possibilities for the future. As I said I can't predict the future.

Madcow, glad you love your paddle shifters, they are great and actually shift gears faster then a clutch (not the case for Di2 IMO). If they worked that well for bikes IE an actual performance improvement we would not have to waste time talking about this. Your modifications do go a long way in moving things in that direction. The ability to dump gears would greatly speed shifting and add fluidity to the user experience. Colorado climbers has done interesting work as well improving and modifying the system. But all this talk comparing car transmissions and perceived progress just obfuscates the actual system as it is now and what it does and does not do.

I suggest we make a list of functional features of all the groups we are looking at and compare. This could include such items as ease of setup and maintenance, reliability measured in number of shifts without issues, ability to swift under load, weight, cost, survivability in a crash, durability, repairability and ergonomics, useful stuff like that. Then we can have an intelligent conversation without the hype :thumbup:
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by Weenie


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stella-azzurra
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by stella-azzurra

rustychain wrote: I suggest we make a list of functional features of all the groups we are looking at and compare. This could include such items as ease of setup and maintenance, reliability measured in number of shifts without issues, ability to swift under load, weight, cost, survivability in a crash, durability, repairability and ergonomics, useful stuff like that. Then we can have an intelligent conversation without the hype :thumbup:


That's is just great Rustychain and I admire your enthusiasm and drive on this subject I expect a full report on Monday :smartass:

Better get a move on because it's Thursday already :lol: :lol:
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madcow
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by madcow

rustychain wrote:I suggest we make a list of functional features of all the groups we are looking at and compare. This could include such items as ease of setup and maintenance, reliability measured in number of shifts without issues, ability to swift under load, weight, cost, survivability in a crash, durability, repairability and ergonomics, useful stuff like that. Then we can have an intelligent conversation without the hype :thumbup:


I think it's safe to say that I have a lot of experience with all the groups and that without hard numbers collected over years of use, I could probably guess at the answers to those as well as anyone. Just thinking about the last two years, (about as long as 11spd and Di2 have been out and as well how long since the change to 7900) I think I could throw a generalized list like that together pretty easy.

Ranked from best to worst, based on my experience and opinion, not only with my own groups but those of others from general customers to pro tour riders that we work with.

Ease of setup (not just how easy it is, but also how long it takes.)
1. Campag11
2. 7900
3. Sram Red
4. Di2

Maintenance:
1: Di2
2. Sram
3. Campag 11
4 7900

Reliability: (based on number of shifts front+rear without mis-shifts.)
1. Di2
2. 7900 (although not as good as 7800 was.)
3. Campag 11 (Campag 10 would have easily come in ahead of 7900 and tied with 7800.)
4. Sram red (because of front shifting issues)

Ability to shift under load:
1. Di2
2. 7900
3. Campag 11 (close to 7900 but 7900 still wins in the front.)
4. Sram (again suffers for front shifting issues.)

Weight:
1. Sram red
2. Campag 11
3. 7900
4. Di2

Cost: Based on U.S. retail price
1. Sram red
2. Campag Record 11
3. 7900 and Super Record 11 (technically 7900 is cheaper at retail but by less than $20 so basically I'd say they are a tie.)
4. Di2

Survivability in a crash. Basically this really can't be estimated fairly so I'll leave it alone. I will say that it's pretty rare to see most of the groups get severly damaged in a crash, but probably most frequent severe damage is a snapped Campag lever blade. Though really not common.

Durability. based it on failures that don't seem to be crash related.
I'm going to list these as ties. Basically you have Di2 and Sram in 1st, both of which are fairly rare to see break in any way. The other tie is with 7900 and Campag 11. Occasionally you see a mech plate break on Shimano rears, and you see the index gearing jam up and break on the shifters. For Campag we see a fair amount of broken front derailleurs. Since going to the carbon outer plate the Campag derailleur has become a lot more delicate than in years past.

Repairability:
1. Campag 11
2. Sram
3. 7900 and Di2

Ergonomics, this is an individual preference so shouldn't be included in a generalized list.

I'll only add one other and that's warranty/service.
1. Sram
2. 7900 and Di2
3. Campag 11

I don't think you actually expected a real answer but since I had a few spare minutes I at least gave you a starting point. So if anyone would care to discuss the groups on their merits, you've got a list to work from .

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

madcow wrote:Weight:
1. Sram red
2. Campag 11
3. 7900
4. Di2
How so? Campag is now lighter than Sram Red isn't it?

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madcow
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by madcow

madcow wrote: Just thinking about the last two years, (about as long as 11spd and Di2 have been out and as well how long since the change to 7900) I



You are right though, super record is now lighter than red. Here's the actual numbers for full groups.
2011 Super record, 2128grams
Sram Red, 2214grams
2010 Super record, 2219grams
2010 record, 2261grams

konky
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by konky

Most serious riders/racers will value reliability and ability to shift under load as most important factors IMO. Di2 wins both times according to madcow.

rustychain
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by rustychain

Thanks for that Madcow.
Some random observations
Perhaps we need to look at shifting issues of the front and rear derailure separately. Customer service is a great point, is your observation based on the U.S. market alone? Also I would guess that reports of issues would be skewed by market share. How may Di2's are out there compared to SR?? I would guess the DA out sells both :no idea: . I would question the survivability of the rear Di2 but only based on internet rumor. Not fair I know. Some of the early SR groups had finish issues, the finish was flaking off front and rear derailures. DA also had issues with finish I understand with the crank being most notable. DA also had rattling issues with the shifter/brake levers. Sram had some real issues with cables wearing quickly but I think that has now been addressed. I was not aware of issues with the new Campag front derailures but aside from that issue IMO they have the better track record of durability. Slowtwich had reported some Di2 issues but I am unclear how that resolved. Not reliable info perhaps and a statistically meaningless number but it does suggest that anything can fail
All in all your subjective look is much more helpful for those looking at selecting a group set. Thanks again
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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reggiebaseball
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by reggiebaseball

madcow wrote:
rustychain wrote:I suggest we make a list of functional features of all the groups we are looking at and compare. This could include such items as ease of setup and maintenance, reliability measured in number of shifts without issues, ability to swift under load, weight, cost, survivability in a crash, durability, repairability and ergonomics, useful stuff like that. Then we can have an intelligent conversation without the hype :thumbup:


I think it's safe to say that I have a lot of experience with all the groups and that without hard numbers collected over years of use, I could probably guess at the answers to those as well as anyone. Just thinking about the last two years, (about as long as 11spd and Di2 have been out and as well how long since the change to 7900) I think I could throw a generalized list like that together pretty easy.

Ranked from best to worst, based on my experience and opinion, not only with my own groups but those of others from general customers to pro tour riders that we work with.

Ease of setup (not just how easy it is, but also how long it takes.)
1. Campag11
2. 7900
3. Sram Red
4. Di2

Maintenance:
1: Di2
2. Sram
3. Campag 11
4 7900

Reliability: (based on number of shifts front+rear without mis-shifts.)
1. Di2
2. 7900 (although not as good as 7800 was.)
3. Campag 11 (Campag 10 would have easily come in ahead of 7900 and tied with 7800.)
4. Sram red (because of front shifting issues)

Ability to shift under load:
1. Di2
2. 7900
3. Campag 11 (close to 7900 but 7900 still wins in the front.)
4. Sram (again suffers for front shifting issues.)

Weight:
1. Sram red
2. Campag 11
3. 7900
4. Di2

Cost: Based on U.S. retail price
1. Sram red
2. Campag Record 11
3. 7900 and Super Record 11 (technically 7900 is cheaper at retail but by less than $20 so basically I'd say they are a tie.)
4. Di2

Survivability in a crash. Basically this really can't be estimated fairly so I'll leave it alone. I will say that it's pretty rare to see most of the groups get severly damaged in a crash, but probably most frequent severe damage is a snapped Campag lever blade. Though really not common.

Durability. based it on failures that don't seem to be crash related.
I'm going to list these as ties. Basically you have Di2 and Sram in 1st, both of which are fairly rare to see break in any way. The other tie is with 7900 and Campag 11. Occasionally you see a mech plate break on Shimano rears, and you see the index gearing jam up and break on the shifters. For Campag we see a fair amount of broken front derailleurs. Since going to the carbon outer plate the Campag derailleur has become a lot more delicate than in years past.

Repairability:
1. Campag 11
2. Sram
3. 7900 and Di2

Ergonomics, this is an individual preference so shouldn't be included in a generalized list.

I'll only add one other and that's warranty/service.
1. Sram
2. 7900 and Di2
3. Campag 11

I don't think you actually expected a real answer but since I had a few spare minutes I at least gave you a starting point. So if anyone would care to discuss the groups on their merits, you've got a list to work from .


Thanks for your detailed analysis!

It is very rewarding to see a bike professional, a person who works with many many clients, and talks to pros,
rates Di2 as best in: maintenance, reliability, ability to shift under load, and durability! Those are the categories that matter to me (along with warranty).

How interesting to see you put Campy so low in all of those categories... I thought it was the pinnacle of modern engineering.
I wonder how the campy fanboys will tear you down... maybe it's cause you like paddle shifters too much.
Well at least if anything goes wrong they have the worst warranty service!

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madcow
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by madcow

I think it's important to note that all of the groups work well and we're talking about differences that probably don't really matter to most people on the whole. Di2 works well, nobody is really arguing that, it's biggest problems are weight and moreso it's price. If I were to have done this a couple years ago things would have been different. I like Campag, I think the change to 11 was great in terms of ergonomics, I love the feel of the new hood shapes and the lighter weight, but at the same time the tolerances with 11spd are tighter which leaves less room for error. This means that friction and contamination play a larger role in how well Campag works. The 11 speed shifters are a bit more exposed and with the tighter tolerances that's going to translate to a decrease in performance under some conditions. However the decrease in performance for Shimanos 7800 to 7900 change was even greater.

Actually truth be told, I'm a little bit poo-poo on all the groups. 7800 worked fantastic and Shimano made it worse for the sake of a cleaner looking cable routing. Campag 10 worked equally as well and Campag made it worse for sake of another gear. Sram worked well but needed some fixes and they were/are aware of it, but for some reason decided at the last minute to not make them. And Di2 was released with some big expectations, which performance wise it meets, but somehow for the price it feels as though it hasn't come into it's potential yet. I understand that they wanted to scale back so the change wasn't so dramatic but for the price difference it just seems like it should have arrived being more than a side step in some categories and should have been improved in every way. I understand it's a side step with a huge future potential, but again I had hoped for more in the initial offering.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Just read madcows analysis (very good) and then scanned through the 3 pages of thread just to see if I really missed anything eye opening. Whew, doesn't look like it, so happy me for that. This thread's been going on for a while, and like politics and religion, should probably not be discussed over famiy get togethers or when guns may be present. I have worked on all three, and owned them all as well, and seen the iterations over more years than I'd care to admit. I've got SRAM on the TT bike, Shimano on the Touring bike, and Campy on most of the road/race bikes I've owned. And you know what... They're all good and quite frankly I'm at the point in this message that I'm thinking I might not even hit send. But in all of madcow's objective criteria comparing the groups, he left something out, and for good reason. Plain old sex appeal. Different for everyone. Can't explain it. Don't attempt to. Just is. Now, can't we all just get along :-). I'm kinda new here, by the way. And late for a date. She's really cute. Maybe not the smartest lady I know and can be a pain in the ass sometimes, but you know what... I love her anyway. Always have. Always will.
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rustychain
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by rustychain

Madcow,
was your issues regarding SR front derailure based on the 2011 model or prior versions? It is my understanding that improvements were made in 2011 and most of your issues were stated to be with the front derailure. Would you consider the issues fixed?
I have to question maintenance rating on Red if just due to the cable wear issues. A friend has to replace his every few months. I don't know if thats typical however.
Shifting under load, how would you compare the rear derailures? Again speaking about the 2011 version.
I would also question about SR ease of setup as many reported issues are related to poor cable setup. Perhaps its fast to set up but not so much to set it up correctly :noidea:
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spartan
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by spartan

velonews go it right. di2 to enable hydralic disc brakes. the evolution of the road bike will be complete.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/01/ ... ere_154425
Current Rides:

2018 Madone SLR DISC DI2 9XXX
2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

cryoplasm

by cryoplasm

DI2 is great but a distraction.

UCI also need to reevaluate their policy on equipment rules. For example who the heck ever said deep dish carbon wheels are legal within the rules, when a non-diamond shaped frame is not?!

We live in a sick world.

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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

cryoplasm wrote:UCI also need to reevaluate their policy on equipment rules. For example who the heck ever said deep dish carbon wheels are legal within the rules, when a non-diamond shaped frame is not?!


Don't you mean deep profile?

Dish is the centering of the rim over the hub.
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ty-ro
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by ty-ro

madcow wrote:...7800 worked fantastic and Shimano made it worse for the sake of a cleaner looking cable routing.


I feel like a bit of a whiner, but I feel the same way. I have 6700, 7800, & 7900. The post 7800 cranks are tops, but the new shifting is a step backwards in my opinion. The new hood shape is not my favorite either. I have big hands, but still prefer the 7800.

I've tried SRAM Red before and it felt, for lack of a better term, "violent". It was precise but quite jolting compared to the silky Shimano feel.

So, now I sit wondering which way to go, zig or zag...Campy 11 or Di2? I think I'm ready to try something new. Hmmm... :noidea:

by Weenie


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