RIM BRAKE FRAMES = OBSOLETE!

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Flasher
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:10 pm

by Flasher

Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:54 pm
If business does not act in a way that sustains the environment, then business will cease to exist (along with the rest of us). We must work from the assumption that humans and their businesses will continue to exist.
Do you honestly think that most big businesses consider the environment, from my perspective it's increased profits over everything else?

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I think rim-brake connoisseurs should take advantage of the situation. Rim-brakes have crossed the vale into artisan / *phile territory. Own it. If there’s enough demand, band together and create a rimophile brand with its own boutique rim-brake groupset, wheelsets and maybe even frame options. After all, it just takes marketing to win people over…so you say.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

warthog101
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by warthog101

I can't believe it has taken sooo long for brakes that work safely and adequately in the wet to arrive.

Discs should have been widely available for road bikes years ago.

They are now, so about time.

Yes rim brakes are less complex and easier to work on.
I don't see it being impossible to buy componentry for them any time soon.
Second hand stuff is cheap as most are moving away. Bargains to be had for fans of rim brake. Get into it!

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Flasher wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:35 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:54 pm
If business does not act in a way that sustains the environment, then business will cease to exist (along with the rest of us). We must work from the assumption that humans and their businesses will continue to exist.
Do you honestly think that most big businesses consider the environment, from my perspective it's increased profits over everything else?
This has been quantified and many do. And corporations are learning that sustainable practices and maximizing profit are often not mutually exclusive. There is great incentive to be efficient in energy use for example. The cheapest barrel of oil is the one not purchased. In the business-to-business context governments have a roll to play regulating behaviour. Good political systems are required - the developing world has challenges.

For business-to-consumer it's all about the brand. The data on consumers shows very strong preference for brands/products associated with sustainable practices and rejection of brands with bad environmental reputations. These companies' success depends on satisfying this consumer demand. Again, the market seems to be a driver here.

The people that run corporations live on this planet as well. Some are trash, but most are up for making things better. Industrial activity will not be banned, it will continue. It's only responsible to deal with the reality. Better to press industry toward sustainable practices than throwing up our hands and wishing we could return to the stone age 'cause that's not going to happen. I hope it's not too late.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

basilic
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by basilic

...
Last edited by basilic on Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

basilic
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by basilic

Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:46 am
Flasher wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:35 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:54 pm
...
Mr Gib, the examples you give agree with Flasher - reducing the energy bill or green-posturing for attractivity are profitable.
But there are externalities that accompany current economy that noone pays for (until we all do): weather disturbances, loss of biodiversity, rising ocean levels, global warming... You cannot count on businesses to address that in time (and no, airlines buying carbon certificates is not effective).
In my memory the only event that really changed the trend was the covid lockdown of spring 2020 - no smog, birds in the city, everyone riding bikes. So maybe bikes are part of the solution after all.
Sorry about the drift, I'll stop now.

Lina
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by Lina

Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:46 am
Flasher wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:35 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:54 pm
If business does not act in a way that sustains the environment, then business will cease to exist (along with the rest of us). We must work from the assumption that humans and their businesses will continue to exist.
Do you honestly think that most big businesses consider the environment, from my perspective it's increased profits over everything else?
This has been quantified and many do. And corporations are learning that sustainable practices and maximizing profit are often not mutually exclusive. There is great incentive to be efficient in energy use for example. The cheapest barrel of oil is the one not purchased. In the business-to-business context governments have a roll to play regulating behaviour. Good political systems are required - the developing world has challenges.

For business-to-consumer it's all about the brand. The data on consumers shows very strong preference for brands/products associated with sustainable practices and rejection of brands with bad environmental reputations. These companies' success depends on satisfying this consumer demand. Again, the market seems to be a driver here.

The people that run corporations live on this planet as well. Some are trash, but most are up for making things better. Industrial activity will not be banned, it will continue. It's only responsible to deal with the reality. Better to press industry toward sustainable practices than throwing up our hands and wishing we could return to the stone age 'cause that's not going to happen. I hope it's not too late.
But the thing is, nothing is actually forcing companies to be green. Yes consumers prefer green options. But all brands need to do is greenwash their stuff to seem green and they get the benefits of "being green".

Not really an environmental cause. But as Russia attacked Ukraine a year ago a lot of companies left Russia. But a lot didn't, some said they will but then just either kept their operations going or even invested more. Not leaving hasn't hurt them at all outside of Russia. Yeah if it gets out they lied people will boycot their products for a week until they forget and then continue buying their stuff. Heineken recently got caught investing more in Russia. Do you think it will have any impact on their bottom line? People might buy less Heineken branded beer but considering how big their portfolio is most people are going to probably end with their product anyway when they're trying to boycott them. And they're going to forget about it in a couple weeks anyway.

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tymon_tm
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by tymon_tm

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:26 pm

I might be a little biased - I had been working in marketng for almost 20 years
cheers, that makes me understand your position a lot better. you make very valid statements, anyway i'll find some time later on to answer them and counter :lol: your academc POV with "real lfe" bits (not that I don't appreciate scientific take on things; actually that's what had got me started and flamed the, now worn off, passion for marketing)
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

Flasher
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:10 pm

by Flasher

Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:46 am
Flasher wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:35 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:54 pm
If business does not act in a way that sustains the environment, then business will cease to exist (along with the rest of us). We must work from the assumption that humans and their businesses will continue to exist.
Do you honestly think that most big businesses consider the environment, from my perspective it's increased profits over everything else?
This has been quantified and many do. And corporations are learning that sustainable practices and maximizing profit are often not mutually exclusive. There is great incentive to be efficient in energy use for example. The cheapest barrel of oil is the one not purchased. In the business-to-business context governments have a roll to play regulating behaviour. Good political systems are required - the developing world has challenges.

For business-to-consumer it's all about the brand. The data on consumers shows very strong preference for brands/products associated with sustainable practices and rejection of brands with bad environmental reputations. These companies' success depends on satisfying this consumer demand. Again, the market seems to be a driver here.

The people that run corporations live on this planet as well. Some are trash, but most are up for making things better. Industrial activity will not be banned, it will continue. It's only responsible to deal with the reality. Better to press industry toward sustainable practices than throwing up our hands and wishing we could return to the stone age 'cause that's not going to happen. I hope it's not too late.
Professional marketer of 35 years standing, supports marketing and big business strategies **shock**

jasjas
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am

by jasjas

Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:46 am
Flasher wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:35 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:54 pm
If business does not act in a way that sustains the environment, then business will cease to exist (along with the rest of us). We must work from the assumption that humans and their businesses will continue to exist.
Do you honestly think that most big businesses consider the environment, from my perspective it's increased profits over everything else?
This has been quantified and many do. And corporations are learning that sustainable practices and maximizing profit are often not mutually exclusive. There is great incentive to be efficient in energy use for example. The cheapest barrel of oil is the one not purchased. In the business-to-business context governments have a roll to play regulating behaviour. Good political systems are required - the developing world has challenges.

For business-to-consumer it's all about the brand. The data on consumers shows very strong preference for brands/products associated with sustainable practices and rejection of brands with bad environmental reputations. These companies' success depends on satisfying this consumer demand. Again, the market seems to be a driver here.

The people that run corporations live on this planet as well. Some are trash, but most are up for making things better. Industrial activity will not be banned, it will continue. It's only responsible to deal with the reality. Better to press industry toward sustainable practices than throwing up our hands and wishing we could return to the stone age 'cause that's not going to happen. I hope it's not too late.
Ime the very wealthy i.e those that run corporations, think they can buy their way out of anything, even climate change, they will seek "Green" alternatives where it maximises profit or the very worst polluting production methods if that makes them even more money.

Brands can market their way to be associated with Sustainability...whilst doing the opposite... the move to disk braked bikes wasn't to save me a rim or Tobin a hairy wet weather braking experience, let alone the planet! - it was to make more money via increased sales.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

jasjas wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:34 pm

Brands can market their way to be associated with Sustainability...whilst doing the opposite... the move to disk braked bikes wasn't to save me a rim or Tobin a hairy wet weather braking experience, let alone the planet! - it was to make more money via increased sales.

The combination of rim brakes AND capitalism have been around for ~130 years. Bike shipments did not change significantly when MTBs and now road bikes switched to disc brakes. This likely didn’t happen either when rim brakes displaced spoon brakes, though it is amusing to think about the angry spoon-brake holdouts in the 1890s frothing over capitalist rim brakes.

The vast majority of consumers do not care what kind of brakes come on their bicycles, so the mechanism for change is not solely or even mostly corporate greed. Practically speaking, it makes perfect sense to converge on disc brakes since MTB and gravel bikes exist which do not use rim brakes. At the very least I can share my road and gravel wheels (plus spare brake pads and rotors) between my Rock Lobster and road race bikes.

Plus that whole carbon rim, wet weather, consumable rims, consistent braking regardless of trueness/roundness, leverage/pull strength for riders with smaller hand, no adjustments needed when switching between rims of different width, etc. bit.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Flasher wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:33 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:46 am
The people that run corporations live on this planet as well. Some are trash, but most are up for making things better. Industrial activity will not be banned, it will continue. It's only responsible to deal with the reality. Better to press industry toward sustainable practices than throwing up our hands and wishing we could return to the stone age 'cause that's not going to happen. I hope it's not too late.
Professional marketer of 35 years standing, supports marketing and big business strategies **shock**
I think you have to clarify which strategies? And FYI I spent more years in academics then as a "marketer".

By way of analogy we can look at this in a very simple way: are you prepared to give up your shoes? I don't know where you live, but I live in Canada so I'll be keeping mine. And everyone with shoes should remember that there is a vast petrochemical industry that makes our shoes possible. Forget the manufacturing, environmentally destructive as it is - how do you think they got to the store where you bought them? So if we are not willing to give up our shoes, our effort should be to make the shoe industry as sustainable as possible - this is a strategy that I support.



TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:54 pm
... though it is amusing to think about the angry spoon-brake holdouts in the 1890s frothing over capitalist rim brakes.
It probably actually happened, though no web forum flame wars.

When I was in high school, early 1980's, a fellow student showed up with a road bike with disc brakes. The brake "pads" were some rather big rubber puck shaped things that pressed against some sort of rotor. I can't recall the nature of the caliper, but the system was cable actuated and the rubber pucks rotated as they advanced . I remember testing the brakes by pulling the lever - I didn't ride the bike. I also remember that the bike weighed a literal ton. I was racing at the time, so I was familiar with the heft of my steel Bob Jackson Mesina, and the weight of this thing shocked me. I've searched online but can find no trace of this oddity.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Flasher
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:10 pm

by Flasher

Mr.Gib wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:12 am
Flasher wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:33 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:46 am
The people that run corporations live on this planet as well. Some are trash, but most are up for making things better. Industrial activity will not be banned, it will continue. It's only responsible to deal with the reality. Better to press industry toward sustainable practices than throwing up our hands and wishing we could return to the stone age 'cause that's not going to happen. I hope it's not too late.
Professional marketer of 35 years standing, supports marketing and big business strategies **shock**
I think you have to clarify which strategies?
Isn’t the strategy of marketing, selling stuff to people that didn't realise they needed something until it was marketed to them.
Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:26 pm

I might be a little biased also – I have been teaching marketing for 20 years. :P (and 15 years before that in the private sector)
Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:46 am
And FYI I spent more years in academics then as a "marketer".
You can call it academia if you wish but teaching it makes you a Yoda level marketer, surely :wink:

Btw. there is no criticism of what you do or how you do it, I'm genuinely interested in your Pov.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Flasher wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:52 am
Isn’t the strategy of marketing, selling stuff to people that didn't realise they needed something until it was marketed to them.
There is a range of behaviour. From misrepresenting products and services, false advertising, etc., up to organizations that provide ongoing satisfaction, even delight, while enhancing the lives of their customers. Note that at the "low end" those dishonest practices are illegal just about everywhere.

The practice of selling "stuff" to people who didn't realize they needed can be an extremely valuable role that marketers play in the lives of consumers. Sometimes the "tail wagging the dog" is a good thing. There is actually a category of products called unsought goods - these are products and services that consumers don't know about or choose not to think about. Think of the countless lives destroyed by the death of the family breadwinner that could have been salvaged if by more effective marketing of life insurance! (And somewhere out there is someone who avoided a crash because they responded to marketing about disc brakes. :D )



Flasher wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:52 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:46 am
And FYI I spent more years in academics then as a "marketer".
You can call it academia if you wish but teaching it makes you a Yoda level marketer, surely :wink:
No marketing Yoda here. I lack the entrepreneurial spirit and creativity to be a good marketer. And teaching in business school doesn't mean you are on Team Big Corporation (or Team Poor Consumer), it's all rather data driven. In marketing specifically, we simply analyze practices to determine which brings the greatest benefits to the most stakeholders and present those findings to students.

I often notice among new students a bias against profit which distorts the perception of much corporate activity. It is likely a deeply held historic cultural attitude among a significant portion of the population. Rather, a high profit over a significant time period indicates a high level of satisfaction and benefit delivered to the customer. To suggest otherwise, that people are being tricked into buying, is to claim that the customers (basically the majority of people) are idiots, gullible, etc.

As for rim brake obsolescence, it occurred because customers percieved additional value in disc brakes, not because they are ignorant, or were tricked. The "lack of choice" argument ignores the time when there was choice. At some point someone bought the first disc road bike when the market was saturated with rim brakes.
Flasher wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:52 am
Btw. there is no criticism of what you do or how you do it, I'm genuinely interested in your Pov.
I understood your comments as intended and thank you for your interest.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



jasjas
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am

by jasjas

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:54 pm
jasjas wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:34 pm

Brands can market their way to be associated with Sustainability...whilst doing the opposite... the move to disk braked bikes wasn't to save me a rim or Tobin a hairy wet weather braking experience, let alone the planet! - it was to make more money via increased sales.

The combination of rim brakes AND capitalism have been around for ~130 years. Bike shipments did not change significantly when MTBs and now road bikes switched to disc brakes. This likely didn’t happen either when rim brakes displaced spoon brakes, though it is amusing to think about the angry spoon-brake holdouts in the 1890s frothing over capitalist rim brakes.

The vast majority of consumers do not care what kind of brakes come on their bicycles, so the mechanism for change is not solely or even mostly corporate greed. Practically speaking, it makes perfect sense to converge on disc brakes since MTB and gravel bikes exist which do not use rim brakes. At the very least I can share my road and gravel wheels (plus spare brake pads and rotors) between my Rock Lobster and road race bikes.

Plus that whole carbon rim, wet weather, consumable rims, consistent braking regardless of trueness/roundness, leverage/pull strength for riders with smaller hand, no adjustments needed when switching between rims of different width, etc. bit.
Of course sales were the driving factor, rim bikes reached a pinacle in the last 5 or 6 years, there was no reason to change your bike out..., disk gave that reason, shift same or more units/greater cost.

But of course there are practical benefits, so what, thats not the argument, as for no adjustments needed.. really? i 've yet to find a wheelset i can put in my mtb that doesn't need re centering of the caliper if its a different hub make and thats before we get onto rotor size :D :shock:

No idea what spoon brakes are, before my time but obv not yours.

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