RIM BRAKE FRAMES = OBSOLETE!

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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GaBa
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:01 pm

by GaBa

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:46 pm
jasjas wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:22 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:56 pm
All a rim-brake bike needs to do is sell in enough quantity to justify its continued existence. It doesn’t need to keep pace with the disc-brake version of the bike…that would of course be impossible.

I bet Trek sold fewer than 1000 rim-brake Madones worldwide between 2018-2019.
Very few people will put money on what every LBS in the world tells you is old/discontinued tech/no parts... wont matter whether it is better or not, people buy into what they are told is "better/latest/get bits for/best resale"
that's basically it

something similar can be observed regarding cars - 10 years ago EU was pushing diesels like crazy. many countries would offer surcharges for anyone willing to swap his old car for a brand new one. today we're hearing diesel/petrol cars should be literally 'banned', and some cities actually go that way. ten years from now there won't be any passenger diesel/petrol car availible, and Tobins of this world are gonna claim "it's customers' fault"
This x100! :thumbup:

by Weenie


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tymon_tm
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by tymon_tm

Mr.Gib wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:38 pm

Rather, the current form of high end bicycles today is the result of innovation and response to consumer demand.
here's where we disagree. demand is not an element, a natural force that, seeking for right solutions, mysteriously pics right products. consumer decision-making is a process, and like in many other cases it takes two to tango. but AFAIK consumers are at a huge disadvantage in this dance. there's literally tons of studies, books etc. on the matter that have helped shaping todays marketing strategies to maximize on, and exploit what you call "demand". you seem to believe in genuine, un-influenced process that sees best products awarded with most appeal. but it's the other way round, and has been for while now.

I might be a little biased - I had been working in marketng for almost 20 years, creating such strategies myself. yup, I'm one of many people to blame, although I'had never gotten above a certain level - mostly SMEs for me. but it had been long enough time to lose any illusions about presence of ethics in business, which is one of main reasons I left.

of course consumerism that's plaguing 1st world societies wasn't designed in a lab and thrown outta planes on us, but it's also not something naturally born out of people's "needs". fact is - we've gotten so carried away with it, shortening products' life cycle to a minimum - most of us have developed a version of "stockholm syndrome" where we view whatever new product hitting the shelves as *necessary* and *better*.

probably not the time or place to write about it, but stuff that's going on with climate and forthcoming unprecedented mass migration due to it's rapid change, will need to shift our perspective back. back to what, i don't really know. but it's deffinitely not healthy to abuse resources manufacturing products that are being replaced at maybe 1/5th or even 1/10th of their potential lifespan.

long post short - we're the dogs wagged by our own tails. it's not nice nore obvious, but that's the cost of evergrowing economy "for the betterment of our lifes" - a.k.a the biggest BS of our times.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

jasjas
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am

by jasjas

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:34 pm
jasjas wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:22 pm

Very few people will put money on what every LBS in the world tells you is old/discontinued tech/no parts... wont matter whether it is better or not, people buy into what they are told is "better/latest/get bits for/best resale"

Pretend it's 2017-2018:

Very few people will put money on what the media and pro peloton are calling spinning blades of death with multiple competing thru-axle standards, post-mount vs flat-mount, SCS, the faff of bleeding brakes, rub, warping/melting IceTech, etc. High-end bike shops are still actively steering people away from road disc and road tubeless.
Well, in 2017/18 people where still buying rim because dealers/manufacturers/press were not telling punters that rim was obsolete, DA9100 was cutting edge rim tech....

But by 2019/20 that changed and talk was 9100 r8000 would be the last rim brake groupsets and tbh which mainstream manufacturer is producing bikes with shimano's top end rim groupsets fitted, even though available.

Look, i don't care what others ride... i can't afford to ditch all the rim frames/bikes and wheels i ve got, atm just can't justify it.

But this year in Mallorca got a nice TCR in disc for 2 weeks so maybe i will become a convert???

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:31 pm
I might be a little biased - I had been working in marketng for almost 20 years
I might be a little biased also – I have been teaching marketing for 20 years. :P (and 15 years before that in the private sector)

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:31 pm
probably not the time or place to write about it, but stuff that's going on with climate and forthcoming unprecedented mass migration due to it's rapid change, will need to shift our perspective back. back to what, i don't really know. but it's deffinitely not healthy to abuse resources manufacturing products that are being replaced at maybe 1/5th or even 1/10th of their potential lifespan.
This is the sustainability argument and it’s a great time and place to write about it. It is the only route to the survival of our planet and society as we know it. Your concern regarding sustainability is highly relevant to the obsolescence of rim brake bikes and other fast evolving products. I agree that business must find a way to innovate in a way that improves sustainability, not reduces it.

But the first requirement for a sustainable organization is long term profitability. This will only come from satisfying customers. Trying to earn a windfall in a single transaction no longer works. For long term profit and indeed survival, nothing beats brand loyalty, which is only achieved with better performing, more competitive products/services.

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:31 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:38 pm
Rather, the current form of high-end bicycles today is the result of innovation and response to consumer demand.
here's where we disagree. demand is not an element, a natural force that, seeking for right solutions, mysteriously pics right products.
The demand is there, and it is natural as demonstrated by Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. This is very basic psychology widely accepted and taught since the 1940’s. For example, at the bottom is the need for food and shelter (physiological). Those two basic needs have evolved courtesy of marketers into two massively diverse industries. And like many industries, at the extremes there are products that the world would be better without. Yes there is an obesity crisis, and too many huge wasteful houses, but life would be much worse going back to a hunter gatherer lifestyle which is (at least theoretically) where we would be without the marketer.

FYI, according to Maslow, disc brakes will likely be percieved by consumers to satisfy safety and esteem needs, needs that have existed since long before the bicycle was invented.

The fact that marketers lead the product development process doesn’t mean that it is not for the genuine benefit of the customer. If early pioneers in the auto industry had asked consumers what they wanted, the answer would have been faster horses. What great marketers do is understand base human needs and find innovative ways to satisfy them. In the auto example the need for better, faster, cheaper transportation. For bikes, consumers wanted carbon wheels and better braking, so the industry gave us discs. Yes the consumers were involve here.

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:31 pm
but AFAIK consumers are at a huge disadvantage in this dance. there's literally tons of studies, books etc. on the matter that have helped shaping todays marketing strategies to maximize on, and exploit what you call "demand". you seem to believe in genuine, un-influenced process that sees best products awarded with most appeal. but it's the other way round, and has been for while now.
On the contrary, the consensus is that advances in consumer-to-consumer communication (social media) have allowed the consumer to match or exceed the increased sophistication of marketers. Consumers are better informed, and better able to organize today then at any point in the past. It is not unusual for consumers to know more about the products they buy than the people selling them. And globalization and advanced logistics offer consumers increased choice and expose all marketers to global competition. Painting consumers in general as hapless dupes to scheming businesses is simply not a well-informed view.

The only industry circumstance that can significantly threaten the interest of the consumers is a lack of competition. I trust no explanation is needed.

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:31 pm
of course consumerism that's plaguing 1st world societies wasn't designed in a lab and thrown outta planes on us, but it's also not something naturally born out of people's "needs". fact is - we've gotten so carried away with it, shortening products' life cycle to a minimum - most of us have developed a version of "stockholm syndrome" where we view whatever new product hitting the shelves as *necessary* and *better*.
Product life cycles are indeed getting shorter and the waste of it is a shame. The speed of change is the result of advances in technology that allows companies to obtain customer feedback, then design, manufacture, distribute, and communicate (advertise) about the revised product, all at an increased speed. The necessity for the product revision in the first place is the result of competition so we are back to the primary requirement of sustainability: profit/survival, which won’t happen if your products (bikes) are obsolete (rim brakes). :D

@tymon_tm, I share your pessimism regarding humanity. Too many of us are far too superficial and only judge ourselves by the stuff purchased or possessed. Consumerism is out of control and it is killing the planet. But the cynical view of the all-powerful corporation and the victim consumer is not accurate in consumer facing industries. The vast majority of companies' motivation is simply to compete by making something better with "better" being judged by the customer.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

eli76141
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:43 pm

by eli76141

DEADRE wrote:
Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:51 am
== On how innovation must pave the way for the future (down tube shifters vs. ergo shifters, yes this makes sense)
Big bike need to make money. And they need to make money every year. In order for that to happen, they need to come op with something new continuously - even though we, the consumers don't need it.

The urge for discs never came from us (the consumers). Before discs I never found topics on WW with members complaining about lack of stopping power. We have always been content with the stopping power of rimbrakes.

When discs arrived, people started to complain about the stopping power of rimbrakes. Not before.

IMO the bikes of 2018/2019 - the last generation of rimbrake bikes, is where the biketech peaked. They were the best there ever was. They couldn't make rimbrake bikes any better. They were light, aero, had wide wheels and had electronic shifting. Trek integrated the cables with the last generation of rimbrake bikes.

There was nothing more you could improve. So in order for big bike to make even more money, they had to come up with something new. Something that we didn't really need. And to make sure that everyone who wanted to buy a new bike, bought a disc brake bike, they stopped developing new rimbrake bikes.

The big change happened, when the pro's finally accepted and embraced DB. From that point, there was no turning back, which in my opinion is sad. I love my rimbrake bikes, and I'm not gonna pay +10k euros for DB bikes. Fortunately a lot of other people do, which leaves a lot of 2nd hand good rimbrake bikes for the rest of os. And I'm definitely going to stock up.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

eli76141 wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:31 am
DEADRE wrote:
Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:51 am
== On how innovation must pave the way for the future (down tube shifters vs. ergo shifters, yes this makes sense)
Big bike need to make money. And they need to make money every year. In order for that to happen, they need to come op with something new continuously - even though we, the consumers don't need it.

The urge for discs never came from us (the consumers). Before discs I never found topics on WW with members complaining about lack of stopping power. We have always been content with the stopping power of rimbrakes.

When discs arrived, people started to complain about the stopping power of rimbrakes. Not before.

IMO the bikes of 2018/2019 - the last generation of rimbrake bikes, is where the biketech peaked. They were the best there ever was. They couldn't make rimbrake bikes any better. They were light, aero, had wide wheels and had electronic shifting. Trek integrated the cables with the last generation of rimbrake bikes.

There was nothing more you could improve. So in order for big bike to make even more money, they had to come up with something new. Something that we didn't really need. And to make sure that everyone who wanted to buy a new bike, bought a disc brake bike, they stopped developing new rimbrake bikes.

The big change happened, when the pro's finally accepted and embraced DB. From that point, there was no turning back, which in my opinion is sad. I love my rimbrake bikes, and I'm not gonna pay +10k euros for DB bikes. Fortunately a lot of other people do, which leaves a lot of 2nd hand good rimbrake bikes for the rest of os. And I'm definitely going to stock up.

Reminder that nobody asked for rim brakes either. We just accepted them because that was the incumbent technology. Incumbency is a terrific advantage in most cases.

Carbon rims also happened and we all know that brake draggers can blow up carbon rims, latex inner tubes, etc. real quickly. Plus that whole wet braking thing. No textured braketrack comes close to disc in terms of response time...even the best braketracks take a half-second to clear the accumulated water.

eli76141
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:43 pm

by eli76141

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:09 am
Reminder that nobody asked for rim brakes either. We just accepted them because that was the incumbent technology. Incumbency is a terrific advantage in most cases.
Nobody asked for bikes either.

But since rimbrakes have been around for many many years, they have proved their worth. The top athletes even raced them for more than 100 years with no issue.

Besides that, braking is a very little part of riding a bike. Most people are concerned about how to ride fast and how to get faster. Stopping the bike is a minor thing about the hole concept of riding a bike.

Sure discs are better in the rain, but honestly how many hours do you spend in the rain Tobin?
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:09 am

Carbon rims also happened and we all know that brake draggers can blow up carbon rims, latex inner tubes, etc. real quickly. Plus that whole wet braking thing. No textured braketrack comes close to disc in terms of response time...even the best braketracks take a half-second to clear the accumulated water.
DEADRE wrote:
Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:51 am

== On how disc stops on a dime during on a rainy day. No one is asking pros & cons of it!

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

eli76141 wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:11 am

Sure discs are better in the rain, but honestly how many hours do you spend in the rain Tobin?

Even if I only do 10 wet rides/races a year, I want to be able to stop in all 10 of them.

Lina
Posts: 1055
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

eli76141 wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:31 am
DEADRE wrote:
Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:51 am
== On how innovation must pave the way for the future (down tube shifters vs. ergo shifters, yes this makes sense)
Big bike need to make money. And they need to make money every year. In order for that to happen, they need to come op with something new continuously - even though we, the consumers don't need it.

The urge for discs never came from us (the consumers). Before discs I never found topics on WW with members complaining about lack of stopping power. We have always been content with the stopping power of rimbrakes.

When discs arrived, people started to complain about the stopping power of rimbrakes. Not before.

IMO the bikes of 2018/2019 - the last generation of rimbrake bikes, is where the biketech peaked. They were the best there ever was. They couldn't make rimbrake bikes any better. They were light, aero, had wide wheels and had electronic shifting. Trek integrated the cables with the last generation of rimbrake bikes.

There was nothing more you could improve. So in order for big bike to make even more money, they had to come up with something new. Something that we didn't really need. And to make sure that everyone who wanted to buy a new bike, bought a disc brake bike, they stopped developing new rimbrake bikes.

The big change happened, when the pro's finally accepted and embraced DB. From that point, there was no turning back, which in my opinion is sad. I love my rimbrake bikes, and I'm not gonna pay +10k euros for DB bikes. Fortunately a lot of other people do, which leaves a lot of 2nd hand good rimbrake bikes for the rest of os. And I'm definitely going to stock up.
I'm not sure where you were when carbon wheels came about but I distinctly remember people complaining how bad the braking is on them constantly, especially the early ones. All the way to the point where disc brakes came about. We actually only started to get carbon wheels with textured brake tracks and even decent braking when disc brakes started to make an appearance. There was discussion about finding brake pads that made them at least tolerable, much like there is of brake pads that don't squel with disc brakes nowadays. I also remember how people complained how those "peak bike" bikes with integrated rim brakes, under bb brakes, etc. sucked as brakes. I remember discussions about rim delaminations. I remember the latex blowouts. But sure looking back at it with rose tinted glasses and forgetting all the downsides makes rim brakes seem much better deal than they were. If rim brakes truly were as good as rim brake truthers are making them to be disc brakes wouldn't have blown up in a matter of couple years like they did.

basilic
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Location: Geneva, Switzerland

by basilic

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:26 pm
This is the sustainability argument and it’s a great time and place to write about it. It is the only route to the survival of our planet and society as we know it. Your concern regarding sustainability is highly relevant to the obsolescence of rim brake bikes and other fast evolving products. I agree that business must find a way to innovate in a way that improves sustainability, not reduces it.

But the first requirement for a sustainable organization is long term profitability.
You seem to equate business sustainability and sustainability of the planet. But the two are on a collision course. The current business model is based on continued economic growth, and that's precisely what threatens the planet. The most sustainable model for cycling is to keep one's bike as long as possible, only change parts that no longer work, and to avoid electronics and batteries. And shut down a nonessential website like ww.

Maddie
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by Maddie

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:46 pm
something similar can be observed regarding cars - 10 years ago EU was pushing diesels like crazy. many countries would offer surcharges for anyone willing to swap his old car for a brand new one. today we're hearing diesel/petrol cars should be literally 'banned', and some cities actually go that way. ten years from now there won't be any passenger diesel/petrol car availible, and Tobins of this world are gonna claim "it's customers' fault"
Interesting comparison, but come on...

EU may have pushed diesel sales 10 years ago, but you know what? People still bought petrol cars. In some countries a bit less, but still enough for manufacturers to offer both diesel and petrol. If I look around now, I see next to no manufacturer who banned petrol cars. And diesel cars neither.

Now, the EU approved ending the sale of vehicles with diesel and petrol engines in a bit more than 10 years. Did the manufacturers push for that in order to sell new technology, like EVs? Hardly. Most of the manufacturers would have been very happy to continue selling both diesel and petrol cars. The difference is that politics/government forces them. If I look at rim brake bikes, no government, not even the UCI forced manufacturers to stop selling rim brake bikes. Here, the customer decided and the manufacturers followed.

eli76141
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:43 pm

by eli76141

Lina wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:10 am
1) I'm not sure where you were when carbon wheels came about but I distinctly remember people complaining how bad the braking is on them constantly, especially the early ones. All the way to the point where disc brakes came about. We actually only started to get carbon wheels with textured brake tracks and even decent braking when disc brakes started to make an appearance. There was discussion about finding brake pads that made them at least tolerable, much like there is of brake pads that don't squel with disc brakes nowadays.

2) I also remember how people complained how those "peak bike" bikes with integrated rim brakes, under bb brakes, etc. sucked as brakes. I remember discussions about rim delaminations.

3) I remember the latex blowouts. But sure looking back at it with rose tinted glasses and forgetting all the downsides makes rim brakes seem much better deal than they were.

4) If rim brakes truly were as good as rim brake truthers are making them to be disc brakes wouldn't have blown up in a matter of couple years like they did.
1) I was right here. And you're right, when carbon rims were a new tech, they had their problems - just like everything else new has had it problems. The problems were not related to the brakes though, they were related to the rims and the tech behind the rims. Aluminum rims worked just fine. But even though the rims had their problems, they evolved and got better.

2) Sure, integrated brakes - most of them sucks. That was also big bike trying to make something new for us to throw money at. Building light bike parts was another thing they wanted us to throw money at, and then weightweenies surfaced.

3) Latex blowouts might have been a problem. Not sure it was a big problem though. It isn't a problem when not riding in the mountains. Besides that, everyone rides tubeless - again tech has evolved.

4) As Tymon has mentioned before, DB didn't blow up RB. Big bike blew up RB - they found a new product with the prospect of making a lot more money than they could on RB bikes, now we have to throw money at new frames, wheels and groupsets. With carbon rims at least didn't have to throw money at frames and groupsets.

This is why I don't find RB bikes obsolete. They are still as good as before. That said, I'm sad that they don't do R&D on RB bikes anymore. They could at least let the R&D from DB bikes trickle down to RB bikes.

Lina
Posts: 1055
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

eli76141 wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:20 pm
Lina wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:10 am
1) I'm not sure where you were when carbon wheels came about but I distinctly remember people complaining how bad the braking is on them constantly, especially the early ones. All the way to the point where disc brakes came about. We actually only started to get carbon wheels with textured brake tracks and even decent braking when disc brakes started to make an appearance. There was discussion about finding brake pads that made them at least tolerable, much like there is of brake pads that don't squel with disc brakes nowadays.

2) I also remember how people complained how those "peak bike" bikes with integrated rim brakes, under bb brakes, etc. sucked as brakes. I remember discussions about rim delaminations.

3) I remember the latex blowouts. But sure looking back at it with rose tinted glasses and forgetting all the downsides makes rim brakes seem much better deal than they were.

4) If rim brakes truly were as good as rim brake truthers are making them to be disc brakes wouldn't have blown up in a matter of couple years like they did.
1) I was right here. And you're right, when carbon rims were a new tech, they had their problems - just like everything else new has had it problems. The problems were not related to the brakes though, they were related to the rims and the tech behind the rims. Aluminum rims worked just fine. But even though the rims had their problems, they evolved and got better.

2) Sure, integrated brakes - most of them sucks. That was also big bike trying to make something new for us to throw money at. Building light bike parts was another thing they wanted us to throw money at, and then weightweenies surfaced.

3) Latex blowouts might have been a problem. Not sure it was a big problem though. It isn't a problem when not riding in the mountains. Besides that, everyone rides tubeless - again tech has evolved.

4) As Tymon has mentioned before, DB didn't blow up RB. Big bike blew up RB - they found a new product with the prospect of making a lot more money than they could on RB bikes, now we have to throw money at new frames, wheels and groupsets. With carbon rims at least didn't have to throw money at frames and groupsets.

5) This is why I don't find RB bikes obsolete. They are still as good as before. That said, I'm sad that they don't do R&D on RB bikes anymore. They could at least let the R&D from DB bikes trickle down to RB bikes.
1) That's all good but with rim brakes rims are not just some irrelevant outlier but they're the braking surface. If it's not good then the brakes are not good. Sure aluminium rims worked fine and still work fine. But that really limits your rim choice. And while carbon rims have gotten better they're nowhere near aluminium rims or disc rotors in braking performance.

2) Weightweenieism wasn't something big bike started. It has always been a niche movement with homegrown tinkerers doing drillium, paint removal, and building their own niche parts. Integrated brakes was an attempt to make bikes more aero, because rim brake calipers aren't exactly peak aero.

3) Sure tubeless solved the latex issue. But tubeless wasn't there yet in force when disc brake took over. And not many people are willing to go back from disc to rim brakes even when the latex issue is solved.

4) No. Literally no one is forcing you to throw money at new frames, wheels, and groupsets. Other than you yourself of course. Big bike won't show up behind your door and force you to buy new shit at gunpoint. It's you doing that on your own. My main road bike is still rim brake bike from 2017. It's got over 50 000 km on it and it's still doing fine. Sure I'm considering a new bike with disc brakes because that would make everything easier since every other bike I own is with discs now. But I'm by no means forced to do so. If you feel the need to throw money at new disc brake bikes you'd feel compelled to throw money at new rim brake bikes just as much because you'd have that FOMO of not having the latest and greatest tech.

5) As I said above, rim brake bikes are still just as good as they once were. There's no real reason to buy a new bike just because someone released a new version of their bike or a new groupset. But no one is going to do a new rim brake version of a frame they'd sell maybe a hundred pieces in a year. And that's if they're lucky.

So stop chasing the latest and greatest and enjoy what you've got.

eli76141
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:43 pm

by eli76141

Lina wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:39 pm

4) No. Literally no one is forcing you to throw money at new frames, wheels, and groupsets. Other than you yourself of course. Big bike won't show up behind your door and force you to buy new shit at gunpoint. It's you doing that on your own. My main road bike is still rim brake bike from 2017. It's got over 50 000 km on it and it's still doing fine. Sure I'm considering a new bike with disc brakes because that would make everything easier since every other bike I own is with discs now. But I'm by no means forced to do so. If you feel the need to throw money at new disc brake bikes you'd feel compelled to throw money at new rim brake bikes just as much because you'd have that FOMO of not having the latest and greatest tech.

5) As I said above, rim brake bikes are still just as good as they once were. There's no real reason to buy a new bike just because someone released a new version of their bike or a new groupset. But no one is going to do a new rim brake version of a frame they'd sell maybe a hundred pieces in a year. And that's if they're lucky.

So stop chasing the latest and greatest and enjoy what you've got.
I totally agree. No one is forcing me to chase the latest new stuff. But whenever I wear out a component on my RB bike, I'm forced to consider switching to DB, because big bike don't support RB spares. My favorit groupset of all time is the Shimano Dura Ace 9100 RB mechanical groupset. They don't even make it any more, and they sure as hell don't make a newer version for me to move on to. Obviously there are lot of spares on the 2nd hand market. But then you have the headache with buying second hand - how long will this component work? And for how long will I be able to find a replacement?

I'm perfectly fine with just staying with what I've got. I don't need upgrades every year.

But I'm concerned that big bike will make it impossible for me to stay with what I've got.

I'm debating with myself wether to buy a custom titanium or steel frame suited for RB and mech grouppo, just to make sure, that the frame will last for many years.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

basilic wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:50 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:26 pm
This is the sustainability argument and it’s a great time and place to write about it. It is the only route to the survival of our planet and society as we know it. Your concern regarding sustainability is highly relevant to the obsolescence of rim brake bikes and other fast evolving products. I agree that business must find a way to innovate in a way that improves sustainability, not reduces it.

But the first requirement for a sustainable organization is long term profitability.
You seem to equate business sustainability and sustainability of the planet. But the two are on a collision course. The current business model is based on continued economic growth, and that's precisely what threatens the planet. The most sustainable model for cycling is to keep one's bike as long as possible, only change parts that no longer work, and to avoid electronics and batteries. And shut down a nonessential website like ww.
They are inseparable. If business does not act in a way that sustains the environment, then business will cease to exist (along with the rest of us). We must work from the assumption that humans and their businesses will continue to exist. We will not go backwards. Therefore business must find innovative ways to advance both the economic and physical well being of humanity in a way that perserves the same opportunities for future generations. A business that fails cannot play a part in this - hence the requirement for profitability. And only business has the resources and power to solve this problem. No government, organization, or group is up to the task. The late Ray Anderson, CEO of Interface carpet, makes the point better then I ever could. https://www.ted.com/speakers/ray_anderson. His Ted Talk on the issue is well worth a listen.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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