Descending Technique and ACTION SHOTS

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Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:14 am
You're 100% right about this.
I know. Silly jokes aside your constant references to aerodynamics do undermine your argument that knee out is worse in hard corners.
Mr.Gib wrote:
Thu Jan 01, 1970 5:35 am
1. Rhetorically means "with the aim of producing an effect or making a statement rather than eliciting information". In this case the information I am not seeking to elicit is which is faster because it appears unknowable. And the "statement" I am making is that it is unknowable. Hence the inclusion of the lack of the conceivable study idea. So the meaning of the post is in fact that I am not "requiring experiments and proof of any benefit..." Somehow you got that backwards. :noidea:
Ok, so after all this, two threads, weeks of back and forth, claims of science based evidence, appeals to your own authority, all of it... you finally admit that you have absolutely no idea if knee in is any better than knee out?

Halle *f##k* lujah! :beerchug:
But hey, you didn't comment on Wout.
Hey, you're not telling the truth again. I commented that you provided a bunch of photos of him going no faster than the knee out people you were contrasting him with.

How do you view Wout? Is he someone who has struggled with descending?

warthog101
Posts: 872
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

Knee in, or a touch out?
Care factor = 0


by Weenie


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Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:33 am
@tobinhatesyou, been down that side of the Colombiere a couple of times and no pancakes anywhere.
And yes, I recognize that is a 90 degree turn, just like here in Canada. Also no pancakes.
And that paint and logo combo looks incredible.
Hey look, your knee is in!
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:01 am
That last shot of Wout is plenty tight. That inner tarmac edge changes direction about 30 degees over maybe 10 - 12 feet. It will turn 180 degrees in a very short space. Typical flatter French hairpin. In certain regions in Italy you see more tarmac filling the inside of the turn and they don't flatten them out as much, so you get a little "wall" of tarmac right in the corner.

From what I have seen of Wout, my impression is that he can descend with anyone. Just cruising the Columbiere on Saturday he gapped the peloton (and his team) and had to sit up a bit. He's big so that's a factor.
Wout is looking almost straight in the picture. Still pictures are completely useless in this debate.

xcandrew
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 8:54 am

by xcandrew

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:29 pm
Granted it’s hard to tell just how tight/slow those turns are from the photos.
How about this photo? Is this tight enough? The inside edge of the tarmac says hairpin.
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How tight or slow turns are is not how you rate how hard a rider is going through a corner. Lean angle (through the center of mass) is the measure you are looking for. It's directly related to lateral gs. A 45-degree lean angle is 1 lateral g, where the lateral acceleration equals gravitational acceleration. 45 degrees also happens to be about the limit for most bike tires.

The photo of Wout, the one of Jobst in the OP, and some of the corners SAFA Brian takes in his videos have the greatest lean angles right around 45 degrees and, therefore hardest cornering shown in this thread (might be missing some, didn't scroll through again to verify).

I remember Jobst's argument for keeping the body in line with the bike was stability on rough corners. He used the example of coasting straight down a rough surface with the bike leaned off to the side. The bike's steering and path would be kind of erratic. But if you stayed centered over the bike, you could coast down the same rough road no handed. Revisualize that into going through a rough corner at a 45-degree (or whatever) lean angle and it's still more stable to be lined up with the bike. He was a Porsche race car suspension engineer, a great descender, and someone who could explain concepts well, so I give his explanation some weight. But I don't think that sticking a knee out or not changes things enough to matter, and is obviously not the difference between a good and bad descender.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I paid attention to what my body was doing while descending in a hilly road race this weekend (6000ft in 73 miles.) Another reason why my knee pops out in sharp, hard cornering is because I am literally pointing my entire body in the direction I want to go as one buttcheek is braced against the fat part of the saddle. So my pelvis, chest, knee, everything is twisted to the inside.

skinnybex
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:07 pm

by skinnybex

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:58 am
I paid attention to what my body was doing while descending in a hilly road race this weekend (6000ft in 73 miles.) Another reason why my knee pops out in sharp, hard cornering is because I am literally pointing my entire body in the direction I want to go as one buttcheek is braced against the fat part of the saddle. So my pelvis, chest, knee, everything is twisted to the inside.
^^^This, Knee out Your torso - chest will turn and open up in the same direction your inteding to turn or carve a corner along with your head scanning ahead and looking through the turn. The steering input required is minimal with body position and bike lean along with propper entry speed most important instead of hard braking at the last moment or halfway through the apex which always equates to being slower.
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MagicShite
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:33 pm

by MagicShite

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:58 am
I paid attention to what my body was doing while descending in a hilly road race this weekend (6000ft in 73 miles.) Another reason why my knee pops out in sharp, hard cornering is because I am literally pointing my entire body in the direction I want to go as one buttcheek is braced against the fat part of the saddle. So my pelvis, chest, knee, everything is twisted to the inside.
this is pretty much what the mtbkers used to say about pointing with your pee pee when cornering.

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Miller
Posts: 2764
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

Bonjour descending experts. Here's six minutes of descending the north side of the Col du Glandon during Sunday's Marmotte Granfondo des Alpes. To note: the road was closed to motor traffic during the event.


TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Miller wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:33 pm
Bonjour descending experts. Here's six minutes of descending the north side of the Col du Glandon during Sunday's Marmotte Granfondo des Alpes. To note: the road was closed to motor traffic during the event.


Typical sportive/fondo descending on display................

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

PT’s latest video is a strong indication that he has no clue how to descend on a road bike.

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Mr.Gib
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Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:56 am
Typical sportive/fondo descending on display................
LOL, the only fondo I would participate in is one that raises money for people injured in fondos. That is nuts, no way to enjoy the Glandon. This is better descending (go to 24 sec).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNZ_K14iT-Q
Last edited by Mr.Gib on Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:20 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:56 am
Typical sportive/fondo descending on display................
LOL, the only fondo I would participate in is one that raises money for people injured in fondos. That is nuts, no way to enjoy the Glandon.

Lotta rim-brake bikes with popped latex tubes on the side of the road. And I count at least two sets of emergency responders. Horrendous honestly.

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TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

My sides hurt from laughing so hard. LMAO thank you, this video made my night :lol: :lol:

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Mr.Gib
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Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

Turns out cornering is only part of the battle. Apparently braking is also important and from what I can see a few riders are ignoring some basic laws of physics. You want to grab the brakes hard? Well then move your damn weight back. A what's with my cycling hero AVV not using the whole width of the road to set up her line? Just asking for trouble.

Bad braking and a great save:
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling/vid ... giro-donne (scroll down for the vid)

Bad braking without the save:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AZrXO-bKFg
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Get the upper body as low as possible. Automatically forces your butt back to make room on the TT for the torso.

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