Descending Technique and ACTION SHOTS

[jasjas]

He went in too fast and had to lose too much speed.... and crashed.... slow in fast out as Kenny Roberts used to say.

King Kenny had a throttle.
You could argue he was better at being fast out than other GP racers at the time, as he was used to controlling a sliding bike with the throttle, due to his flat track racing background.

indeed Kenny did but the fact remains, that the guy went in too fast, tried to scrub speed and crashed... yes you need to carry corner speed on 'cycle but crashing will cost you far more time than a more conservative approach, as this guy proved.

There is far less control on a bicycle however without a throttle.
You are not controlling a slide or exit speed without one.
Not running soft tyres with a larger contact patch that allow the feel and control of a slide when combined with a throttle.
No ability to be particularly "fast out" without drive being applied to the rear wheel.
The motorcycle analogy in this thread doesn't really work.
It is however far more interesting than bicycle cornering.

Yes going in too fast on either is a good way to crash with the possible exception of M Marquez.

Don't know about you but the whole reason i corner with my knee out on my bicycle is just in case i have to pick it all up again, if i go into too hot, 100mm cranks make sure i can power slide the rear

Seriously, comparisons on m/c vs bicycle cornering is meaningless, as you say the two are totally different but for me, i d rather go in a little slower and then sprint out, is better than trying to lose speed mid apex.

[warthog101]

Yeah slower in is better than face planting.
It is still fun getting it right, but I'm getting older and slower now.

[blaugrana]

There is far less control on a bicycle however without a throttle.
You are not controlling a slide or exit speed without one.
Not running soft tyres with a larger contact patch that allow the feel and control of a slide when combined with a throttle.
No ability to be particularly "fast out" without drive being applied to the rear wheel.
The motorcycle analogy in this thread doesn't really work.
It is however far more interesting than bicycle cornering.

Yes going in too fast on either is a good way to crash with the possible exception of M Marquez.

https://youtu.be/CuQVKWizmJw

Yes, the lack of throttle really changes everything. "Slow in, fast out" implies that after the apex, you start decreasing the cornering load by opening up the trajectory, and using the extra grip left in the tyre to apply power. The power of even a strong cyclist is almost negligible in comparison, so on a bicycle the most logical choice would be to simply try to carry as much speed as possible by distributing the cornering forces all the way through the corner (so follow a rounder trajectory). Slowing down a bit more to sharpen the trajectory and accelerate earlier is very unlikely to pay off.

[usr]

Seriously, comparisons on m/c vs bicycle cornering is meaningless, as you say the two are totally different but for me, i d rather go in a little slower and then sprint out, is better than trying to lose speed mid apex.

Nice to see so many voices agreeing on the pointlessness of motorcycle / roadbike theory transfer. In reality I see former and current motorcyclists clearly in the faster than average descending group, but that's not because they transfer some bike control tricks, it's because they are good at selecting a line and speed they trust to have sufficient reserves. Many cyclists even struggle with simple things like "don't start a righthand close to the curb" (I occasionally ride "dedicated last rider down", so I get to see many examples of "safe but slow"... and the occasional "extremely slow, but oh shit that doesn't look safe at all!")

Personally, I'm with you in the camp of "in with plenty of lateral grip reserves, out with a joyful blast of watts", but I reckon that for a actual racing on a roadbike you'd want to pull as much energy through the apex as possible. This is another difference from motorcycle racing: they are not concerned at all with energy expenditure, so a line that is slower at its slowest point but overcompensates by earlier acceleration after the apex is totally worth it for them. So a theoretically optimal moto line has its apex much earlier than the theoretically optional roadbike line. This has the side effect that they are much less affected by surprise dirt and the like, because their plan B is to just skip some or all of that acceleration and that's super safe, super easy and super intuitive. Chances are we of the "slow in, watts out" cyclists like it for the same reason.

[Mr.Gib]

Watching the descent of the Col de la Colombiere today with Wout leading the peloton. Between the helicopter and motorcycle cameras he seemed to be pretty knee-in, but the coverage never really caught him from the right angle in the right sort of turn to get a definitive view. So a quick check of google images – again, not many good views but what was there was mostly knee in.

2019 with teammate (Sep Kuss?) who has his knee out

Today with Gaudu who has his knee out.
With Alaphilippe who has his knee out

Ventoux - proximity to guardrail suggests the apex of the turn.

TT


I did manage to find one photo with his knee out :

[TobinHatesYou]

These are all high-speed corners where you'd likely pedal until one brief pause at the apex. Also I don't consider that Jumbo teammate's (it's not Sepp) knee to be out anyway...it's neutral.

You can do whatever the hell you want with your knee in a sweeper, that's not up for debate.

[Karvalo]

2019 with teammate (Sep Kuss?) who has his knee out

Today with Gaudu who has his knee out.

With Alaphilippe who has his knee out

So you're finally agreeing there's no advantage to keeping the knee in?

[Mr.Gib]

These are all high-speed corners where you'd likely pedal until one brief pause at the apex. Also I don't consider that Jumbo teammate's (it's not Sepp) knee to be out anyway...it's neutral.

Granted it’s hard to tell just how tight/slow those turns are from the photos. Are you suggesting Wout would go knee out if the turns were tighter/slower? He probably does, but I just didn’t find any images of that.

As for the teammates knee, if the knee is outside of the elbow, do we not consider it "out"?

How about this photo? Is this tight enough? The inside edge of the tarmac says hairpin.

You can do whatever the hell you want with your knee in a sweeper, that's not up for debate.

Aerodynamics aside, maybe. I made a living for many years in a sport where races were won by thousandths of a second and speeds often exceeded 100km/h. Our athletes succeeded by removing anything that wasn’t absolutely necessary. A common approach to high performance sport. Maybe it’s not applicable to the sport of cycling.

I think there is a valid purpose to knee out. Someone mentioned knee out got their thigh out of the way of their belly and allowed them to lower their center of mass. Unrelated to the need to clear a big belly, simply swinging a knee out gets more of the body closer to the ground. Perhaps getting the center of mass closer to the ground, and the added sense of security it provides is “absolutely necessary” (for some). But (rhetorically), is it faster? I struggle to imagine the experiment that would give data that would answer that question.

[Karvalo]

Aerodynamics aside, maybe.

In almost any downhill corner requiring braking, added aerodynamic drag is beneficial for peak cornering performance.

Since you keep bringing it up.

But (rhetorically), is it faster? I struggle to imagine the experiment that would give data that would answer that question.

Yet again you're in the position of requiring experiments and proof of any benefit of a knee out position, but we're still supposed to take your word on the benefits of a knee in position because you're good and you use it.

[Mr.Gib]

Aerodynamics aside, maybe.

In almost any downhill corner requiring braking, added aerodynamic drag is beneficial for peak cornering performance.

You're 100% right about this. Next year we will see all riders in protour event using parachutes. Cornering speeds will double. Here is a spyshot:

But (rhetorically), is it faster? I struggle to imagine the experiment that would give data that would answer that question.

Yet again you're in the position of requiring experiments and proof of any benefit of a knee out position, but we're still supposed to take your word on the benefits of a knee in position because you're good and you use it.

Without casting aspersions on whether English and statistics/data analysis is a strength of yours, consider the following:

1. Rhetorically means "with the aim of producing an effect or making a statement rather than eliciting information". In this case the information I am not seeking to elicit is which is faster because it appears unknowable. And the "statement" I am making is that it is unknowable. Hence the inclusion of the lack of the conceivable study idea. So the meaning of the post is in fact that I am not "requiring experiments and proof of any benefit..." Somehow you got that backwards.

2. Now if a proper experiment comparing the two techniques could be conducted, both techniques would, by definition, have to be tested. If an experiment was successfully executed, then empirical proof of the relative status of both techniques would be revealed. And you wouldn't have to take anyone's word for anything. But again to be clear, because your interpretations are, to be diplomatic, a touch avante garde, in that post I was not suggesting that any experiment be conducted.

But hey, you didn't comment on Wout. Do you like him? Do you like his descending? Do you think he's any good? I am not being facetious - without a clock on someone all we have is our opinions. So what's yours?

[TobinHatesYou]

Wout is a pretty good descender, but I'm not convinced any of those shots you c/p are sharp/slow enough to where knee stabilization matters. As I said before, my knee goes out to make my leg more rigid and to get it out of the way of my trunk when I get really low on the bike.

[Mr.Gib]

That last shot of Wout is plenty tight. That inner tarmac edge changes direction about 30 degees over maybe 10 - 12 feet. It will turn 180 degrees in a very short space. Typical flatter French hairpin. In certain regions in Italy you see more tarmac filling the inside of the turn and they don't flatten them out as much, so you get a little "wall" of tarmac right in the corner.

From what I have seen of Wout, my impression is that he can descend with anyone. Just cruising the Columbiere on Saturday he gapped the peloton (and his team) and had to sit up a bit. He's big so that's a factor.

[TobinHatesYou]

That last shot of Wout is plenty tight. That inner tarmac edge changes direction about 30 degees over maybe 10 - 12 feet. It will turn 180 degrees in a very short space. Typical flatter French hairpin. In certain regions in Italy you see more tarmac filling the inside of the turn and they don't flatten them out as much, so you get a little "wall" of tarmac right in the corner.

From what I have seen of Wout, my impression is that he can descend with anyone. Just cruising the Columbiere on Saturday he gapped the peloton (and his team) and had to sit up a bit. He's big so that's a factor.

It's a telephoto shot, everything gets pancaked. You know this, right?

[TobinHatesYou]

I assure you this is a ~90deg corner, not a 30deg one.

[Mr.Gib]

@tobinhatesyou, been down that side of the Colombiere a couple of times and no pancakes anywhere.
And yes, I recognize that is a 90 degree turn, just like here in Canada. Also no pancakes.
And that paint and logo combo looks incredible.
Hey look, your knee is in!