Descending Technique and ACTION SHOTS

[Mr.Gib]

Back to reality. Here is a you tube clip of a guy who is mostly knee in. The descent is not that technical, mostly high speed sweepers. It would be interesting to see what he would do in a series of switchbacks. Complete with crash - should have had his knee out . Anyway, more food for thought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9-XtR9hKUw

[TobinHatesYou]

Back to reality. Here is a you tube clip of a guy who is mostly knee in. The descent is not that technical, mostly high speed sweepers. It would be interesting to see what he would do in a series of switchbacks. Complete with crash - should have had his knee out . Anyway, more food for thought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9-XtR9hKUw

I mean, yes, maybe he should have. It’s the only particularly tight right-hander on that segment, so I’m not sure what you’re trying to point out here. Anyway I’ve been told Safa is a bold descender, but not an amazing one.

[Mr.Gib]

It's an example of serious speed and some good turns without throwing out a knee. Just pointing out for the skeptics that it can be done, and is done. Also an opportunity for some to see it in action. That run is ragged in spots, but it's also super fast. Apparently wind was an issue. Can't say that I have seen anything that is appreciably faster anywhere by anyone. And watching that vid, I don't see a lot of room for faster on that run.

Here's another with better right handers. He flirts with the knee. He may be better turning left which could be due to being right foot dominant. Definitely better line control going left. Gets trapped on the saddle, gives up on some bike lean, and drifts wider when going right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJSpgRIVw78

[skinnybex]

The only really tight turn during that entire segment and he took a pavement nap. Not impressed with his handling skills or line through that turn. I'm guessing he was grabbing that front brake while turning right since his line was suspect and the front wheel washed out which is what happens in that situation. You can hear him hard braking going in to the turn but even a light modulation on the front brake while leaned and turning and it's game over. Yes he's faster than I would be no doubt but I also have all my skin. Anyway's this thread has made my head hurt mainly from Mr. Gib and his armchair analysis so I'll move along and ride my bike with my knee out.

[TobinHatesYou]

Here's another with better right handers. He flirts with the knee. He may be better turning left which could be due to being right foot dominant. Definitely better line control going left. Gets trapped on the saddle, gives up on some bike lean, and drifts wider when going right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJSpgRIVw78

There's a simple explanation that any good descender would instantly recognize...it has nothing to do with left/right leggedness. In the US we drive on the right side of the road. Right-handers are thus a tighter radius on average and have shitty camber. Apexes are on the edge of the road vs the middle if staying within the lanes = more likely to roll over dirt/sand/debris. Right-handers are more likely to be blind. Almost all of my low-sides have been while cornering to the right. All of my busted pedals are right pedals.

[Mr.Gib]

Anyway's this thread has made my head hurt mainly from Mr. Gib and his armchair analysis so I'll move along and ride my bike with my knee out.

And here's a photo of my armchair.

[TobinHatesYou]

TBH there's basically zero correlation between being a good descender and being someone who climbs/descends a lot. Out of all the group rides I do, the worst descending occurs on the one we call "Egan" that strings together a dozen 30s to 5 minute climbs. This is the ride I've mentioned several times before where 2019 and back every descent would smell like burning rubber rim-brake pads. Not so much anymore because almost everyone here has switched to disc.

Being a good climber means having decent power-to-weight. Being a good descender means going fast confidently and understanding the physics/mechanics of cornering. Climbing is slow, descending is fast. The best descenders I know are the puncheurs and sprinters who win crits. The type of rider who knows how to win a race by bombing the last corner.

[Pierre86]

The best descenders I know are the puncheurs and sprinters who win crits. The type of rider who knows how to win a race by bombing the last corner.

Descending is just taking corners fast, it's mostly mental for the people that 'can't descend.'
Even at the top level, all the best descenders are in the grupetto.

[jasjas]

He went in too fast and had to lose too much speed.... and crashed.... slow in fast out as Kenny Roberts used to say.

[Mr.Gib]

There's a simple explanation that any good descender would instantly recognize...it has nothing to do with left/right leggedness. In the US we drive on the right side of the road. Right-handers are thus a tighter radius on average and have shitty camber. Apexes are on the edge of the road vs the middle if staying within the lanes = more likely to roll over dirt/sand/debris. Right-handers are more likely to be blind. Almost all of my low-sides have been while cornering to the right. All of my busted pedals are right pedals.

True, but no reason to crash more. The good descender would simply turn tighter/slower, and deal with what the road serves up. The technical descending we have around here is mostly single lane so we use the whole road which effectively makes both sides equal. Same with above tree line when you can see what's ahead.

Not sure I follow you on the camber thing. If the road is designed with the high point in the center, and falling off sides for drainage - don't you get favourable banking turning right and fall away banking going left? At least at cross roads, urban, flat terrain, etc. And properly engineered sweepers give both directions good banking. Tighty righties are my favourite - a chance to see if my mates have the nerve to put their wheels 1cm from the inevitable hole at the tarmacs edge at the apex.

TBH there's basically zero correlation between being a good descender and being someone who climbs/descends a lot.

Not sure if this is directed at my "armchair" joke in response to the suggestion that I am an armchair athlete. The point about a lack of correlation between being good and experienced has some validity, the good ones get it quickly, and the bad ones rarely improve significantly. But experience is still huge, with the good descenders benefitting most. It's just another form of training. Build a bank of knowledge regarding the response of your body, bike, and brain for every surface, gradient, turn combo, topography, weather, surprise hazard, etc. Do it enough and like all sports, descending becomes autonomous - the body gives the best reaction instantly - something that the thought process of even the most talented novice just can't match. At least this has been my experience over the years in the mountains.

[spud]

not weighing in on this particular arguement, but one of the most interesting things I ever saw was a dude just ahead and inside of me coming into a surprise right hander on a descent, with water just on the apex. I was 100% certain this guy was going to dump it as he was carrying quite a bit of speed (I had time to drag off speed before hitting the patch). Just prior to hitting it, he got in the drops and out of the saddle with legs fully extended. Just as he hit the patch, he rapidly sunk down into the bike (don't recall if he was forward of the saddle or not). Obviously he was unloading the bike by dropping the center of mass. To my amazment, he didn't slide out during or after the apex when he got to dry road. Doing this move there's a risk that when you bottom out on the bike, you overload the tires while still leaned over, but he made it work.

[TobinHatesYou]

Not sure I follow you on the camber thing. If the road is designed with the high point in the center, and falling off sides for drainage - don't you get favourable banking turning right and fall away banking going left? At least at cross roads, urban, flat terrain, etc. And properly engineered sweepers give both directions good banking. Tighty righties are my favourite - a chance to see if my mates have the nerve to put their wheels 1cm from the inevitable hole at the tarmacs edge at the apex.

Lower volume mountain roads here are usually completely outsloped for drainage purposes. It results in less localized pooling/flooding when maintenance is lacking. Also because it doesn’t really snow in coastal California, you can get away with outsloping instead of insloping.

[maxim809]

Ya spud that is actually very interesting.

This is actually another great rabbit hole: What's the best method for keeping the bike up when cornering into a surprise water or loose gravel on skinny road tires?

This can often happen when descending into or out of blind corners. And the rider has a split second decision to make.

So what's the best approach when faced with such scenario? Does one load more weight on the front tires? Do you let up on the grip of the front tires and give more to the rear? Even balance? Or do you do a dynamic approach, like the rider you just described -- and if so, what do those different phases look like?

In truth, every situation is unique. Many factors feed into the "correct" thing to do, and you only have your instincts to rely on. Those who have faced it the most, both pass & fail, will have the most experienced instincts. But amongst those, an even fewer subset can truly articulate their instincts in a way that can be understood and accepted by others.

Even still, stuff like this gets debated to the end of time because the correct thing to do is actually complex -- aka incredibly difficult to measure by definition... sometimes even immeasurable. Combine that with the issue of qualia, where what one individual subjectively experiences is totally different from another's, despite both people experiencing the exact same thing. Imagine one person eats an apple and tastes it sweet, while another born without all tastebuds intact only tastes tart and sour despite it being the same apple. These people end up perceiving and valuing different things from the same world they live in. But who is actually right? Or maybe they're both wrong when we bring in a 3rd supertaster? But how do we know this person is a supertaster? Maybe it's the apple who is wrong?

The crux of this entire topic.

I drag my brakes down descents, blame carbon rims when they warp and blow up, and pros actually climb mountains faster than I can descend them so you should all totally listen to me btw.

[TobinHatesYou]

Ideally you’d put more weight on both tires by getting as low as possible on the bike. You might bias a little more weight forward to increase front tire grip, but that comes at the expense of stability. Feather the rear brake a little more and the front brake less. At lower speeds, use more body english to keep the bike more upright through the corner.

On familiar roads, there’s almost never surprise dirt/gravel. As previously mentioned, those are predominantly on blind right-handers here in the US…you anticipate them.

[Mr.Gib]

Ya spud that is actually very interesting.

This is actually another great rabbit hole: What's the best method for keeping the bike up when cornering into a surprise water or loose gravel on skinny road tires?

If you are talking about an impending slide out from lateral pressure against failing traction, than as per spuds story, dropping center of mass. You are in effect unweighting the bike, hoping to get past the slippery bit before, the tires load up again. Anyone who has skied and encountered glare ice mid turn will be very familiar with this.

The center of mass does eventually bottom out, but if you lower it with control, you can stretch it out a bit. Folding the torso over the bike toward the outside of the turn and steering in the direction of the slide also helps keep the center of mass over the sliding tires as you drop. I have done this to save it a couple of times, but it was only a rear wheel slip and hope to not go there again. Shorts in the bin moment. If the front goes I assume I'm dead. It has to be instinctive, if you have to think about it, it's too late. Must be a more regular thing in gravel riding or MTB but I wouldn't know. Contrary to the road, I take zero risk off-road.