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usr
Posts: 889
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

Maddie wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:40 pm
A lot of Russian citizens/athletes are ashamed for what Putin does. It is a bit too easy to demand punishment to all Russians just because they were born in this country.
It's a war. If their cities were shelled in retaliation the shells would not ask wether they support Putin or not.

It's nice and good and in the grand scheme of things even helpful to Ukraine to welcome and applaud and be nice to Russians rejecting the war. But there is absolutely no base for expecting or even demanding anything like that. (to Russians/Putin apologists:) If people avoid you now, is not their fault, it's your semi-nudist dictator's fault. Deal with it.

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maquisard
Posts: 3772
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

If the actions of my country were so awful, iike what Russia is doing now, I would seek to be a citizen elsewhere. Yes.

As my handle 'maquisard' alludes to, I come from a region of France where good people stood up to their oppressors when required. I would hope that if it ever happened to me I would be so courageous.

Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

usr wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:52 am
Oligarchs like seeing their countrymen win. Even the liar who claims to be called Putin has been known to occasionally attend a sports event. Athlete exclusion deprives them of joy.
I doubt they really care about that while billions are being wiped away from their net worths and their mega yachts are being impounded or kicked off their riviera moorings.

Personally I think having someone like Sivakov out there racing not under a Russian flag and coming out in public with voluntary, uncoerced anti war statements is a more powerful message.
Individual athletes are the equivalent of civilian casualties in this non-violent side of the war.
Well why didn't you say? I'm all for civilian casualties.

Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

maquisard wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:48 pm
If the actions of my country were so awful, iike what Russia is doing now, I would seek to be a citizen elsewhere. Yes.

As my handle 'maquisard' alludes to, I come from a region of France where good people stood up to their oppressors when required. I would hope that if it ever happened to me I would be so courageous.
How old are you? Did you live through the Algerian wars of independence?

Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

usr wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:21 pm
Maddie wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:40 pm
A lot of Russian citizens/athletes are ashamed for what Putin does. It is a bit too easy to demand punishment to all Russians just because they were born in this country.
It's a war. If their cities were shelled in retaliation the shells would not ask wether they support Putin or not.
But they're not. So what are you talking about?
It's nice and good and in the grand scheme of things even helpful to Ukraine to welcome and applaud and be nice to Russians rejecting the war. But there is absolutely no base for expecting or even demanding anything like that.
I don't quite understand your sentence. There's no base for being helpful to Ukraine?

Omiar
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:20 pm

by Omiar

Dutch cycling federation imposes stricter measures on Russian and Belarusian riders than UCI. Riders from the two countries won't be able to ride at any race held in the Netherlands.
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tymon_tm
Posts: 3665
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:35 pm

by tymon_tm

it's not an easy dillema. for instance, there are many russian students where I live (not quite as many as Ukrainians, but still a rather noticeable quantity). one would say it's just innocent kids, but when you think about it, most of them come from families who benefit directly from state's affairs. these aren't "regular ivans", because an average familiy in russia can't afford sending their kids to study abroad, even to Poland.. so their parents aren't innocent bystanders, they're often goverment clerks, businessmen, people connected one way or the other. if I run a open door business would I place a sign "russians not welcome"? possibly, I don't know. I had many opportunities to work with russians before, I've never gone that way, mostly because I know what I'd be getting into. now, when it's all out war, pretending they're just regular folk is somewhat hard to accept.

I wonder how it actually works on universities here, becaue there a lot of mixed Ukr-rus groups of students.. I really wonder how they put up with each other, how does academic staff see them, treat them...

it's easy to claim russian civilian citizen's innocence, when you actually don't cope with them on a regular basis. or when you're not from a country russia's invading and commiting war crimes on it's people like it's nothing. IMHO banning russian athletes is the least international bodies can do. if these athletes don't like their motherland so much, I'm sure obtaining other citizenship isn't that hard really. it's a definitive, but a necessary line to be drawn.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

When the individual atheletes are willingly participating in state propaganda they stop being individual athletes. And while there are some anti-Putin athletes they're very few. Sports is a big part of Russian state propaganda machine, and sanctions that actually have an effect on that might actually be of some worth. That means banning all the athletes. The ban on federations and making them compete under a different name is nothing more than virtue signaling.

And lets not pretend that the Russian citizens are innocent. The majority of them approve of this war and Putin. And if we don't stop him here Putin will just continue in his warmongering ways. He will not stop until stopped by force. Be that either by completely isolating and bankrupting his country or forcing him to abdicate his throne for a new Tsar. There is no other way out of this.

liam7020
Posts: 1263
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:04 am

by liam7020

The paralympics organizers have just lost their balls and voted to allow the Russian and Belarusian athletes to complete...WTF!
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Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

Lina wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:13 pm
The ban on federations and making them compete under a different name is nothing more than virtue signaling.

As is what you're suggesting. You don't seriously think it'll make any difference, you just want to do it because it sounds good.
And lets not pretend that the Russian citizens are innocent. The majority of them approve of this war and Putin.
Citation needed.
And if we don't stop him here Putin will just continue in his warmongering ways. He will not stop until stopped by force. Be that either by completely isolating and bankrupting his country or forcing him to abdicate his throne for a new Tsar. There is no other way out of this.
Absolutely. But that doesn't really have much to do with what we're talking about.

dolophonic
Posts: 871
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:43 am
Location: The 'Dena

by dolophonic

I do not think that Russians should be able to compete ubder "Russian Federation".. that is a farce. Maybe if they disavow Putin and compete under a seperate flag but the idea of just changing the name mkes no impact.

If they are not making a stand against the war / Putin they are supporting it /him.

mrlobber
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:36 am
Location: Where the permanent autumn is

by mrlobber

Karvalo wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:30 pm
Lina wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:13 pm
And lets not pretend that the Russian citizens are innocent. The majority of them approve of this war and Putin.
Citation needed.
Lol, you really think there is some "objective" survey out there conducted in Russia which could be referenced here? :shock: :roll:
But I'd still try: again, my country borders Russia, is in the EU and NATO, and there was a survey 2 days ago which asked if you approve Russia invasion in Ukraine. Guess what, only 51% of the Russian speaking population said "No", meaning the other 49% either silently or openly actually were fine with what's happening.

And now think what's inside Russia itself, with all the official brainwashing going on out there.

Sure, there is a chunk of the population which doesn't agree, and there is another chunk which is simply afraid to be arrested / beaten if attempting to protest, but that is definitely not the majority. Just look what happened when Russia annexed Crimea, Putins approval ratings skyrocketed back through the roof.
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Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

Karvalo wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:30 pm
As is what you're suggesting. You don't seriously think it'll make any difference, you just want to do it because it sounds good.
It's not, it's an actual sanction against a country that is invading another country and committing war crimes.
Karvalo wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:30 pm
Citation needed.
Any interaction with Russians. Or the multiple ratings that have come out recently.

Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

mrlobber wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:13 pm
Karvalo wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:30 pm
Lina wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:13 pm
And lets not pretend that the Russian citizens are innocent. The majority of them approve of this war and Putin.
Citation needed.
Lol, you really think there is some "objective" survey out there conducted in Russia which could be referenced here? :shock: :roll:
Do you not think that's my point? :roll:

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Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

Lina wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:40 pm
Karvalo wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:30 pm
As is what you're suggesting. You don't seriously think it'll make any difference, you just want to do it because it sounds good.
It's not, it's an actual sanction against a country that is invading another country and committing war crimes.
No it isn't. What do you think it will achieve? Nothing. It will make no difference whatsoever. It's just virtue signalling.

And in case you think that means I'm soft on Russia, I think all western nations should revoke any citizenships, residencies or visas for Russians that were purchased under 'golden ticket' investor schemes and sieze all their major property and financial holdings. Including, for instance, nationalising Chelsea Football club which is currently owned by a genuine Kremlin insider and Putin ally/enabler since before he was even President. That's a sporting sanction that might actually mean something.
Karvalo wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:30 pm
Or the multiple ratings that have come out recently.
Like?

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