2022 PRO Thread

[BdaGhisallo]

Didn't he serve a ban for his doping? Has he been found to be doing anything since his return from that ban that warrants further action against him?

The problem with doping is your mitochondrial density isn't just residual...it's forever. Temporary suspensions don't mean much in that context.

If that's the case, why aren't the suspensions longer to account for that?

[spdntrxi]

Didn't he serve a ban for his doping? Has he been found to be doing anything since his return from that ban that warrants further action against him?

The problem with doping is your mitochondrial density isn't just residual...it's forever. Temporary suspensions don't mean much in that context.

If that's the case, why aren't the suspensions longer to account for that?

Because in reality = perma ban.

[Karvalo]

It is beyond me why people are so happy about a doper still racing

Because every single rider to ever have won anything is a doper. The only thing that has changed over the years is their choice of substances. In the early days it was amphetamines and other uppers, then we got to EPO and blood doping, now it's blood doping and probably something else. And you can extend that to every other sport. If you don't want to see dopers you should stop following all sports.

Lemond, Delion, Mottet, Bassons, Bauer, Van Hooydonck, Cunego all won at the top level clean.

Cunego??

[maquisard]

It is beyond me why people are so happy about a doper still racing

Because every single rider to ever have won anything is a doper. The only thing that has changed over the years is their choice of substances. In the early days it was amphetamines and other uppers, then we got to EPO and blood doping, now it's blood doping and probably something else. And you can extend that to every other sport. If you don't want to see dopers you should stop following all sports.

Lemond, Delion, Mottet, Bassons, Bauer, Van Hooydonck, Cunego all won at the top level clean.

Cunego??

I thought that as well, Cunego pretty much admitted to doping and then spent the final years of his career riding clean. He also had a >50% hematocrit exemption at the time he won the Giro if I recall, I think that says it all.

[ave]

>Cunego??
I recall Sean Kelly commenting on his win like 'that was a different era', which he repeated after the other commentator responded something.
Can't remember when this was, I'd say at least 10 years ago.

[Mr.Gib]

taking the right lane in a descent is something that is imprinted in your core, and shouldn't take too much of your operating system. if it does, you simply suck. there's a reason some guys can never learn, and some don't even seem to bother (Zakarin?). on the other hand, for the likes of Nibali or Moho it doesn't matter - they will always get it right, without probably even thinking about it.

descending is like cooking - you either feel it and love it, or you don't and no matter what you couisine is mediocre at best. can't really learn it to the point your trained abilities outweight this lack of "feel".

I agree with the first paragraph but would add to the second. Good descending is not a psychological state, it is the product of particular physical technique that relates to how a body balances against an point of ground contact while in motion (around a curve). I use to make a living coaching bodies to balance against a point of ground contact (alpine skiing). So in my opinion is of course that it can be taught. The problem for cycling afaik, is that no one has broken it down scientifically and created the proper pedagogy to build a competent descender as has been done with skiing. The number of elite cyclists who believe the key is to keep the bike vertical and instead lean the body, throw out at leg as balast, etc. (Carthy on the Mortirolo) is testament to this lack of scientific understanding. Not surprisingly, all my old ski colleagues, various elite level racers, coaches, etc. are incredibly good descenders.

The psychological trauma we see on display in the grand tours is the result of some athletes feeling "lost" on the descents due to a lack of understanding as to why the rider ahead has no problem rounding a curve and they feel like they are about to fly off the mountain. If they understood, had the knowledge, they should be able to build up the skills to at least keep up with those ahead. Yes there will always be those who master the skill and raise it to the level of artistry. And there will be some that are beyond help. Same with all sports. But high competency should be within the grasp of nearly all.

[ultimobici]

It is beyond me why people are so happy about a doper still racing

Because every single rider to ever have won anything is a doper. The only thing that has changed over the years is their choice of substances. In the early days it was amphetamines and other uppers, then we got to EPO and blood doping, now it's blood doping and probably something else. And you can extend that to every other sport. If you don't want to see dopers you should stop following all sports.

Lemond, Delion, Mottet, Bassons, Bauer, Van Hooydonck, Cunego all won at the top level clean.

Cunego??

Oops. Forgot about his admission.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MrCurrieinahurry]

Basso Diamante super record EPS 12
BMC slr01 ultegra Di2

[Karvalo]

I agree with the first paragraph but would add to the second. Good descending is not a psychological state, it is the product of particular physical technique that relates to how a body balances against an point of ground contact while in motion (around a curve). I use to make a living coaching bodies to balance against a point of ground contact (alpine skiing). So in my opinion is of course that it can be taught. The problem for cycling afaik, is that no one has broken it down scientifically and created the proper pedagogy to build a competent descender as has been done with skiing.

For sure. Any skill is a skill that can be taught.

I'd add that a lot of people here talk about 'the line' as if it's the only thing a rider needs to get right, or as if some pro's literally don't know they're supposed to enter wide and apex tight. There's so much more going on with road surface, frost heave, camber etc that can unsettle a bike and make people not want to position themselves on that line if they don't have enough targeted training.

[Karvalo]

Cunego??

Oops. Forgot about his admission.

But if he hadn't admitted it you'd be convinced he was clean? Despite winning a grand tour during the Armstrong era and being involved in the Lampre affair?

[tymon_tm]

taking the right lane in a descent is something that is imprinted in your core, and shouldn't take too much of your operating system. if it does, you simply suck. there's a reason some guys can never learn, and some don't even seem to bother (Zakarin?). on the other hand, for the likes of Nibali or Moho it doesn't matter - they will always get it right, without probably even thinking about it.

descending is like cooking - you either feel it and love it, or you don't and no matter what you couisine is mediocre at best. can't really learn it to the point your trained abilities outweight this lack of "feel".

I agree with the first paragraph but would add to the second. Good descending is not a psychological state, it is the product of particular physical technique that relates to how a body balances against an point of ground contact while in motion (around a curve). I use to make a living coaching bodies to balance against a point of ground contact (alpine skiing). So in my opinion is of course that it can be taught. The problem for cycling afaik, is that no one has broken it down scientifically and created the proper pedagogy to build a competent descender as has been done with skiing. The number of elite cyclists who believe the key is to keep the bike vertical and instead lean the body, throw out at leg as balast, etc. (Carthy on the Mortirolo) is testament to this lack of scientific understanding. Not surprisingly, all my old ski colleagues, various elite level racers, coaches, etc. are incredibly good descenders.

The psychological trauma we see on display in the grand tours is the result of some athletes feeling "lost" on the descents due to a lack of understanding as to why the rider ahead has no problem rounding a curve and they feel like they are about to fly off the mountain. If they understood, had the knowledge, they should be able to build up the skills to at least keep up with those ahead. Yes there will always be those who master the skill and raise it to the level of artistry. And there will be some that are beyond help. Same with all sports. But high competency should be within the grasp of nearly all.

I agree with what you said, lack of "pedagogy" as you named it, surely is one of the main reason why certain abilities are so uncommon.

but still..

For sure. Any skill is a skill that can be taught.

this is simply not true. art skills, creativity, or abstract thinking first come to mind. all skills require training and practice in order to perfect them, but in some cases there's nothing to work with in the first place. you can't teach someone with "two left hands" to be a glassblower, or someone without spacial imagination to become an architect or even interior designer. I mean - theoretically you can, and there are probably lots of people doing work that require skills not suited to their individual capabilities. but they won't excel at their jobs. and that's what we're talking here - to be a top descender you obviously need all that things Mr. Gib mentioned, but without talent, your individual "soil" isn't fertile enough.

[CrankAddictsRich]

I agree that there are skills that can be taught and learned to make people better descenders, but I also believe that some people are gifted with natural abilities that will make them better at it. As mentioned earlier, I think it comes from the ability to feel and find balance. The best descenders are all great bike handlers. They can wheelie, many of them also ride offroad and excel in conditions where traction is limited. They have some sort of natural ability to feel that very edge and limit of grip.

I will say though, that it is clear that some pro cyclists have never learned what a racing line is through a series of turns. They make lack that gifted ability, but it is clear they've also not taken the time to learn the basics.

[micky]

Almeida out due to covid.

[micky]

Rai journalist just mentioned that Almeida yesterday was riding on a light frame, but didnt mention the word prototype until he said that Pogacar has been seen riding on a new frame.

Tried to check the pictures of yesterday but I see Almeida on a bike with a PC8 reporting the name Richeze which could mean he changed bike at some point..?

[Mr.Gib]

The best descenders are all great bike handlers...They have some sort of natural ability to feel that very edge and limit of grip.

Yes, descending confidence is about all about grip (cornering traction). The bad descender is afraid of sliding out while the good descender knows that they won't.

Grip comes from pressure control - the ability to maintain perfectly even pressure of the tire contact patch with the road. This perfect pressure control can only come from the feet and hands, not the ass. On a perfectly smooth road everyone is a hero. But even a slightly imperfect or uneven surface instantly reveals those who use their feet and those who sit on their saddle. With weight on the saddle the slightest ripple results in sudden loading of the tire followed by a sudden release - in effect bouncing off the road. By contrast, supple legs provide very sophisticated suspension that can give excellent traction on an uneven surface. The feet and hands also provide excellent feel of the road surface and awareness of available grip that the ass cannot discern. Technique - traction issue solved!

As to line, each bike will carve a specific radius at a certain lean angle. Different speeds demand different lean angles for balance. Sometimes the two (speed and lean) don't equal the tightness of a particular turn so the rider slows down to "make" the turn. The solution is to separate the lean angle of the bike from the vector (line) between the center-of- system mass and the contact point on the road. In other words get weight off the saddle (again) and use the hands (and feet) and tilt the bike more than the body lean for a tighter turn. This gives perfect control of line and is completely adjustable throughout the turn. Technique - line issue solved!

If any of the above seems strange, go out and try it.