Strava's incoherent ebike and Zwift policies rant

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

If you go for an ebike ride on Srava, it will recognize the ride was 'probably done on an ebike' 'do you want to change it?' Yes/no. However change it and your ride counts for nothing, not 1km, no climbing meters just 'activity' So someone coming back from an ebike ride is very tempted to tell Strava that it was a normal cycle, which then becomes ridiculous because they will then have a bunch of top tens or KOMs, making the whole of Strava pointless.

As if that wasn't bad enough you can get on Zwift get on the back of a cat C peloton tapping out 100w and do 100km in 2 and half hours, something that most of those riders could never do IRL.This was logical in lock-down when people couldn't go out an ride for real, but now it's getting silly.

Strava seem to be incapable of any logic or pragmatism. Simply make Zwift and ebike rides count for half distance and climbing and prevent new top tens that do not have power and HR data.

CarlosFerreiro
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Location: Shetland, Scotland

by CarlosFerreiro

Can I get a 2x multiplier on my solo, cold, windy, rough roads compared with group rides in the sun on smooth roads? :wink:

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OnTheRivet
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by OnTheRivet

You are getting worked up over a competitive aspect of Strava and zwift that have no bearing in reality. If you want to measure yourself against other people do a real race. I use zwift and strava but also know they don't matter, pin a number on if you think you are fast.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

OnTheRivet wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:26 pm
You are getting worked up over a competitive aspect of Strava and zwift that have no bearing in reality. If you want to measure yourself against other people do a real race. I use zwift and strava but also know they don't matter, pin a number on if you think you are fast.
Talk about missing the point! I don't think I'm particularly fast, just a solid cat B rider on Zwift, know my power numbers and capability, I have no need to pin numbers on to prove myself. I commute to work on a heavily packed ebike over 35kms and I am supposed to either upload it as 'activity' or 'cycle'. Cheating KOMs and top tens are just a side-effect if you choose to upload the ride as cycle. Strava is dysfunctional as it essentially encourages ebike riders to upload their rides as normal cycles. A few tweaks to their code, and Strava could fix all this, but they don't because they are too conservative/have no pragmatism.

The point is I pay money to use the full features of Strava, but many features are broken.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

CarlosFerreiro wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:24 pm
Can I get a 2x multiplier on my solo, cold, windy, rough roads compared with group rides in the sun on smooth roads? :wink:
Haha, sure I think I should get x2 for some of my MTB rides too. :beerchug:

usr
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by usr

Lewn777 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:46 pm
I commute to work on a heavily packed ebike over 35kms and I am supposed to either upload it as 'activity' or 'cycle'.
Enlighten us about what problem you have with filing your ebike commute under "activity".

EdWiser
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by EdWiser

Strava was not design to track enike riding. As it is not considered an activity form of exercise.

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synchronicity
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by synchronicity

Well I'm not on zwift or strava, but that does seem rather frustrating, yes.

Why not take your product suggestion(s) directly to the people that matter? :idea:
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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

upload as "private" does not prevent taking KOMs ? No wants to see ebike commute anyways or peloton rides. :mrgreen:
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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Strava's 'ebike' activity type does count towards your annual mileage and climbing elevation. Naturally ebike rides are automatically excluded from any 'leaderboard' type competitions, which makes perfect sense. It seems to me Strava is pretty fair when it comes to ebike rides. So I don't know what the OP's issue is.

Shrike
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by Shrike

I see the problem and yes it's absurd in its current format.

My workaround and what I think Strava will do here, is engage with eBike manufacturers to report power input from the rider and use that to calculate total work in KJ (as we have in regular non-assisted rides). Before then of course your eBike mileage should still count. A mile is a mile, and that's an easy fix that will come no doubt.

Strava's metrics like relative effort can work with HRM and the (hopefully to come) power input from the eBike to fully integrate eBikes into their training and fitness tracking ecosystem.

It will almost certain come or be in the works as eBikes are definitely on the up not just as a commuter or adventure tool, but for a training tool.

Personally looking at one for the Mrs so she can come and train with me (she's actually the one resistant to the idea out of a sense of shame).

I will get an eBike myself when the time suits too, but only if I can trust the power meter accuracy and it can be a part of my training without any issues like you've highlighted in this thread. Doing a threshold ride is still threshold, you've just going faster and having more fun. There is no stopping the eBike momentum now, so it's case of apps like Strava, Garmin, TrainerRoad etc having to adopt protocols with manufacturers on reporting and implementation of data.

Give it time, I think in 2 to 3 years training will look a lot more fun, adaptive and eBike's will be more popular training tools, especially in winter season when it's windier and less fun.

As for Zwift, I think something like a 20% mileage penalty sounds satisfactory for the time being until you consider that actually a lot of riders ride almost entirely on Zwift so they compare ingame to ingame stats. Solution here of course is a deeper filter and option system within Strava, one that lets users filter a total weighted average mileage over real and virtual miles (with say that 20% penalty) and others of just real v virtual (which I think exists in the latter case already).

Current situation for eBike riders isn't sustainable however and clearly yes, ridiculous. Hang in there, Strava doesn't move fast with developments :lol:

MisterNoChain
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by MisterNoChain

CarlosFerreiro wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:24 pm
Can I get a 2x multiplier on my solo, cold, windy, rough roads compared with group rides in the sun on smooth roads? :wink:
+1. Even without Zwift there is no right way of comparing distance. Maybe they can start with a questionnaire after each ride.
Roadbike, gravelbike, mountainbike?
Solo or groupride?
Aero frame Yes or No?
Aero wheels Yes or No?
Aero clothing Yes or No?
Did you use the forbidden aerotuck Yes or No?

We now start calculating your achieved mileage.

usr
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by usr

Back when I could do rollers things were easy, rollers are unquestionably measured in hours, not in kilometers.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:34 am
Strava's 'ebike' activity type does count towards your annual mileage and climbing elevation. Naturally ebike rides are automatically excluded from any 'leaderboard' type competitions, which makes perfect sense. It seems to me Strava is pretty fair when it comes to ebike rides. So I don't know what the OP's issue is.
OK, I have checked Strava, and on the point of elevation gain and distance covered Strava does include this data in your annual stats, I was incorrect. The problem is should it be included? Most ebikes are pedal assist and put out 250w and if not derestricted 25km/h in most countries, it not a level playing field, one person may be using minimal assist on a very heavily loaded bike, another full power, some derestricted. Where I am many KOM leaderboards are filled with ebikes esp on shorter steeper climbs. Surely with HRMs costing as little as $50 and single sided power meters $300 the time has come to make it impossible for rides without this data to be in the top ten. It would be fair to leave the validity of historical rides, but make this data be compulsory from Jan 1st 2022 or some other date.

Also the issue with Zwift tapping out flat virtual rides with fake perfect weather conditions, fake smooth road and drafting a field of hundreds of virtual riders, it's not really fair compared to riding in the real world.

There should be some way that Zwift rides and ebike rides don't count for nothing, but at the same time do not count the same as a 'real' ride.

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Lewn777
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

Shrike wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 8:33 am
I see the problem and yes it's absurd in its current format.

My workaround and what I think Strava will do here, is engage with eBike manufacturers to report power input from the rider and use that to calculate total work in KJ (as we have in regular non-assisted rides). Before then of course your eBike mileage should still count. A mile is a mile, and that's an easy fix that will come no doubt.

Strava's metrics like relative effort can work with HRM and the (hopefully to come) power input from the eBike to fully integrate eBikes into their training and fitness tracking ecosystem.

It will almost certain come or be in the works as eBikes are definitely on the up not just as a commuter or adventure tool, but for a training tool.

Personally looking at one for the Mrs so she can come and train with me (she's actually the one resistant to the idea out of a sense of shame).

I will get an eBike myself when the time suits too, but only if I can trust the power meter accuracy and it can be a part of my training without any issues like you've highlighted in this thread. Doing a threshold ride is still threshold, you've just going faster and having more fun. There is no stopping the eBike momentum now, so it's case of apps like Strava, Garmin, TrainerRoad etc having to adopt protocols with manufacturers on reporting and implementation of data.

Give it time, I think in 2 to 3 years training will look a lot more fun, adaptive and eBike's will be more popular training tools, especially in winter season when it's windier and less fun.

As for Zwift, I think something like a 20% mileage penalty sounds satisfactory for the time being until you consider that actually a lot of riders ride almost entirely on Zwift so they compare ingame to ingame stats. Solution here of course is a deeper filter and option system within Strava, one that lets users filter a total weighted average mileage over real and virtual miles (with say that 20% penalty) and others of just real v virtual (which I think exists in the latter case already).

Current situation for eBike riders isn't sustainable however and clearly yes, ridiculous. Hang in there, Strava doesn't move fast with developments :lol:
Excellent analysis, thanks. :thumbup:
So my conclusion would be:
From Jan 2020 HRM and power data be required to be included in the KOM op ten leaderbaords. 20% mileage and climbing penalty for Zwift and ebike rides. That would make sense for a start.

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