Mid-foot cleat position for road cycling

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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

HammerTime2: Speedplay, and the Lake soles are pretty thick. FWIW, I didn't notice any effect on stability, and wasn'te xpecting to, given that the Patrocleat only adds 3mm to the stack.
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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

An update after getting out on some longer faster rides. When I started this experiment, I thought I would lower the saddle a lot, and bring the saddle forward less. However I was getting pain in my knees and the upper part of my hamstrings, so I brought the saddle forward by 2cm, raising it correspondingly to keep the same saddle height. IOW, I ended up lowering my saddle 1.5cm after moving the cleat rearward 2.4cm, and moving the saddle forward 2cm. It seems I am far enough back given the engagement of hamstrings and glutes, and my knees aren't sore. However I now notice the weight on my hands, which go numb after a couple of hours. So I might push the saddle back 5mm or so, but it is hard to believe this will make a big difference to my hands.

I am also contemplating moving the cleat forward by 5mm or so, to retain most of the advantages of the rearward movement, but allow me to move the saddle back more.
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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Another update after a month. I have moved the saddle back quite a bit because I was getting front of the knee pain, and the saddle is now 1.5cm lower than it was for my old cleat position, with the same setback.

What I didn't expect was that it is a big deal to change your pedalling motion after 50 years (duh...). While my calves are more relaxed and shrinking, the muscles low down on my lower leg are working harder. After a couple of weeks I realized that I was instinctively still trying to pull up with my calf, and worked on visualizing keeping my feet flat. Easiest way to do that for me is keeping pressure of my big toe.

What I continue to notice is that I can use bigger gears for a given gradient than I used to, with the tradeoff that my cadence is slowihg down. I was a lifelong spinner, mostly because of knee issues preventing hight torque on my knees. So I assume what is happening is that with mid-foot, there is less now torque on knees.
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JSL
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by JSL

fruitfly wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:01 pm


The downsides are that toe overlap with the front wheel can be a problem, the calf can't be used in explosive efforts so ramping up to max power output is slower, and climbing out of the saddle is can be very choppy. Many say it shouldn't be used for road racing for these reasons.

The efficiency gain thus comes from less energy expended in the calves and ankles and power for more of the stroke. This shows up for me as lower heart rate at a given power or being able to use a higher gear at the same power, so I go faster.
I found it to be comfortable and it solved some pressure-point issues I had with my feet, but climbing felt nearly impossible. I could no longer spin up a hill and standing was awkward, as you mention. I went back to a more traditional cleat position and my rides were immediately more enjoyable. Didn't work out like I'd hoped, but was till a good experiment.

sib
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by sib

@fruitfly

Thanks for the updates. Still reading with keen interest.
Have there been any changes in your power numbers or overall power profile?

fruitfly
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by fruitfly

sib, Good question. I haven't done a proper power profile, but I do track W/h on long trainer (Fulgaz) rides on climbs (eg Pico de Veleta at >2400m) which takes me about 3.5h. There is bound to be a training effect as well as a mid-foot cleat effect, so interpret this cautiously, but nevertheless, my average power for the climb, and the power for the 1st ,2nd and 3rd hours have increased by about 20%.

I didn't notice significant power changes until my pedalling motion started to change, and I could internalize what it was supposed to feel like. I did spend a lot of time messing about with saddle position, and notice that my muscles are still adapting, even after more than two months.

I do realize that the plural of anecdote is not anecdata, but on my trainer, I set up the virtual chainrings/cassette to be the same as my road bike. Because Fulgaz shows me the gradients, I have gotten used to switching gears at a given gradient to maintain a constant cadence, heart rate, and wattage as far as possible. I started out using my lowest gear when the grade hit 10%, and got out of the saddle at 12%. Now I use my lowest gear when the grade hits 13%, and get out of the saddle at 15%. Outside, I ride with a group of riders who are mostly stronger (=younger!) than me, and I am starting to get comments on how much stronger I am now, mostly because I am taking my pulls even when the going is fast/hard, whereas before I was hanging on at the back and just trying to stay with the group. This is only beginning of my third year back to training after a 40 year gap, so there would be some increase just from more training that I can't separate from the change in cleat position.

I think that because my feet are large (size 13/euro 47), my cleat isn't as far back as it would be for someone with smaller feet, so I notice some choppiness out of the saddle and sprinting, but not as much as I expected. Not a trivial thing to do if one takes the time to adapt to the new position, muscle usage, and feel, but it's not making things worse. The weather is finally warming up and the days are getting longer, so I will be interested to see what happens on rides of over 200km.
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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Another update. I started another thread on speed wobble, and in it lay my reasons for thinking that the recent advent of speed wobble coincides with taking up the mid-foot cleat position. So I am going to try moving my cleats half the way forward again to see if I can retain some of the advantages without the disadvantage of twitchy to wobbling front ends on two frames with different geometries caused by weight being too far back. I'll report back....
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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Moving cleats forward by 1 cm (so now 1.4cm back of where I started) and did a trainer climb of 1500m or so. The first thing I noticed is that I had to use slightly lower shift points (eg shifting at even numbered percentage incline vs odd-numbered), and my cadence went up. W went up too. Need to figure out new saddle setback and height. Also feels a bit easier on the knees (I am 66, and knees have always been my weak point).
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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

Howdy fruitfly, interesting experiment going on here. As someone who takes an interest in this - and will be looking to publsih some thoughts around midfoot cleat in the coming months - there's a few parts I might recommend you consider a little more wholistically. Especially how this
fruitfly wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:01 pm
Ypuh, I am trying it because my feet and calves were cramping, and I was looking for efficiency gains.
should not be taken as mutually exclusive to this other point
fruitfly wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:49 pm
This is only beginning of my third year back to training after a 40 year gap, so there would be some increase just from more training that I can't separate from the change in cleat position.
While I certainly don't disagree with a more midfoot cleat position being employed to take some strain off the calf muscles there is also an element here of not having enough muscluar endurance in the calves (regardless of the cleat position). By mitigating around that with sliding the cleats back you are, to me, addressing the symptom. Not looking for a cure. We know that strength work (read: weights) are of benefit to riders. Of any age. Even moreso as you...mature (no slight intended). I would certainly have that as a consideration while there is still some time before summer proper kicks off.

We also know that the calf muscle group are stablising muscles. But engaging them less you're opening up to some 'potential' instability - which could indeed be part of the speed wobble situation you have encountered. Keen to see how that plays out. As it stands I don't find it a shock that you've noted instability on the bike concurrent to this rather large change in cleat position.

fruitfly wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:01 pm
I was looking for efficiency gains. I learned how to pedal a long time ago, when ankling (toe down on down strke, pull up with heel and calf on up stroke) was the thing to do. At higher RPM (>105) more power goes into moving your legs than moving the bike. With the cleat further back, your foot is more stable, the ankle does less work because it doesn't have to transmit power from lower leg to foot, and more power ends up going to your foot, and the calf does less work. Data show that with midfoot cleats, power is applied over more of the stroke.
Also a lot to unpack here. If you're pulling up then that should be addressed and very much considered in why your calf muscles were fatiguing. Neither they or the hamstring are major contributors to power generation. They're also (relatively) poorly equipped - compared to quads and glutes - when it comes to strength (and by extension, fatigue), blood supply, etc.

I would be also taking a look at how you pedal. If you ankle I would address that. And would certainly not be pulling up. Also, if you have the capacity try and scout a power meter that provides some sort of pedalling dynamics. I'm fortunate enough to have access to a Shimano fit bike that has this function and it's rare (to non existent) that someone is not more efficient when coming forward in their cleat position (from a more midfoot starting point). Unless you're doing tri all the dynamic fit bike evidence I have seen is that midfoot cleat is not quite the panacea it's purported to be.


Not to deny your experience. Just adding mine. Keen to see how you go.
Last edited by Tinea Pedis on Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:24 am, edited 5 times in total.

JSL
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by JSL

I've had about 6 weeks of riding since going from mid-foot on my Bonts to a more traditional setup. I used the Bonts for roughly a year and never felt comfortable climbing or spinning, though the shoes themselves were ok. Because of the adjustments you have to make to the saddle, it messed with the bike fit too. After going back to traditional, everything feels so supple again. I can spin and climb like normal again. My calves were definetely sore the first two weeks while they had to readjust.

fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Tinea, thanks very much for the thoughtful comments. I will think about them carefully. There are many interacting factors, and it is hard to know which to prioritize. I will say that it has been hard to change pedalling style from ankling. It may be that the best part of the mid-foot experiment is that it is giving me a chance to learn what not ankling feels like. Also very true that I am changing too many things at once, and so results can't be interpreted easily.

I will say that somewhat to my surprise, there seems to be very little effect of cleat position on my speed wobble issue. Perhaps the most useful effect overall has been the ability to move my saddle forward at bit, which reduces the reach to the bars, thus increasing comfort on the bike.

I was very interested in your comments re glutes vs hamstrings. I get that the glutes are the largest muscles, but for me at least, if I am getting engagement of glues, I am getting engagement of hamstrings and vice versa. I think one of my pedalling issues is not relaxing on the upstroke, and therefore generating resistance/negative torque to the downstroke.

I have a double sided power meter on the trainer. I did notice higher power/cadence/fluidity of stroke when I moved the cleats forward by a cm (still 1.4cm back of metatarsal joint however). I am going to do some hill climbing over the next few days and will test cleat position effects on long real life climbs.

The weight training I do now doesn't seem to hit the calves very much (squats, Bulgarian squats)-is there an exercise you recommend. Heel raises perhaps?

Thanks again for your insight, and I will look for your article!
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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Here is my last installment in this saga. To recap, I started with a bike that didn't exhibit speed wobble, made a bunch of changes, and it had a persistent speed wobble. I tried a lot of things to resdistribute weight from moving the saddle forward, putting on a longer stem, sitting on the nose of the saddle while descending, descending out of the saddle, and changing cleat position. While there was a perceptible improvement, it didn't solve the problem.

What did solve the problem was shortening the rear hydraulic brake line, which was pushing the handlebar to the left. I have finally had good weather without much wind to test the bike on a ski hill road that allows long fast descents, and that I know well. I reversed all the weight shifting changes (saddle setback, stem, cleat position, so that the only variable was shortened hydraulic line. The descents went well, although it took me until the third descent to start getting my confidence up and letting her rip. I will put on a longer stem however to see what happens.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.
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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

Welcome. I want to stress not only am I not looking to dunk on the church of midfoot I have actually been fitted by Steve. So know that he does not push midfoot on everyone however he is very favourable to moving cleats back. Which I did. And then began years of looking at cleat position and effects on power and performance. Not at all an expert. Only I feel it's perhaps gone from being an outlier to a solution that papers over other 'cracks' in a set up. This isn't aimed squarely at you, of course. I get questions around it once a month, so feels like publishing something isn't a bad idea.

fruitfly wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:54 pm
Tinea, thanks very much for the thoughtful comments. I will think about them carefully. There are many interacting factors, and it is hard to know which to prioritize. I will say that it has been hard to change pedalling style from ankling. It may be that the best part of the mid-foot experiment is that it is giving me a chance to learn what not ankling feels like. Also very true that I am changing too many things at once, and so results can't be interpreted easily.
Too true. Keeping changes in variables down is important. That said, ankling (in spite of what some fitters say) is something that is/can be learned. And un-learned. Pushing that heel down is shortening the power phase. Its not as common to see a totally stable ankle joint. As much as invoking pros is not always a great example they are, in the case, a very good point of reference. What ankling is occurring with them is not by intent. And is not at all pronounced. I'd recommend trying to work on reducing yours. This will need calf strength though. There are a pile of good references online. A good physio is also worth the money for a few consultations around strengthening.
fruitfly wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:54 pm
I was very interested in your comments re glutes vs hamstrings. I get that the glutes are the largest muscles, but for me at least, if I am getting engagement of glues, I am getting engagement of hamstrings and vice versa. I think one of my pedalling issues is not relaxing on the upstroke, and therefore generating resistance/negative torque to the downstroke.
From the data, this is not the case. In the sense that 'engagement does not equal power generation'. Hamstrings are engaged but come into play later - and for a much shorter duration - than the glutes. They are also not as strong. So seemingly take up the slack around what the glutes are not able to produce.

The upstroke negative torque - when riding hard - is primarily due to the force of power generation from the contralateral leg. There should be no pulling up however you don't want that leg relaxed and a dead weight. As that's only adding (a small) amount of resistance. This is part of what makes pros so good at power generation. They have so much time at this they are super refined. So in that respect I don't see a massive issue in using them as a reference when it comes to pedalling.

Tophergoggins
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by Tophergoggins

I recently moved my cleats from almost all the way forward to as far as SPD-SL cleats will go back without an adapter. I also moved my saddle forward until it felt good.

I have very long thighs which has caused problems for bike fitting - especially when using KOPS to set saddle fore/aft. I end up being so far back that I have to reach too much to be on the hoods - I actually end up settling my hands on the 90 degree bend on the bars.

By moving the cleats back it essentially moves the ball of my foot forward so I was able to move my saddle forward a corresponding amount and now my reach feels much more natural.

I think my old bike fit caused me to have overdeveloped quads and calves and there was too much pressure on my knees. I would experience periodic knee pain which has now gone away.

Since my glutes and hamstrings are now a bit more engaged I think I lost a small amount of power since I'm relying less on my overdeveloped muscles. I expect I will make it up as my body adjusts and in general I think it's better for my body to have stronger glutes.

I 100% recommend giving it a go but be aware you may lose a bit of power or explosivity so focus more on comfort and balance on the bike at first.

There you go. Clear as mud.

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ghostinthemachine
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by ghostinthemachine

Tophergoggins wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:26 pm
especially when using KOPS to set saddle fore/aft. I end up being so far back that I have to reach too much to be on the hoods - I actually end up settling my hands on the 90 degree bend on the bars.
KOPS hasn't been used by decent fitters for a decade or more. But I'm also a fan of "cleats as far back as they'll go".
I'll probably try some adaptors with more offset this summer.

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