Help needed: Campag Record 10 speed cable pull/compatibility?

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

Trying a cheap way to smaller gears for my wife's bike.
Today it has 2002 Record 10 speed ergopower, FD and RD.
Chainset is 10 speed Veloce 50/34, so nothing to be gained there. Cassette is 12-25, and going just to a 27 big sprocket wont cut it. I'm looking at a 29 or 30, and for that I'll need a medium cage RD.

So, my dear experts on all things from Vicenza:
Will these Record ergopowers pull a medium cage 10 speed Veloce or Centaur (or some other) RD correctly?
Will happily be steered to an external resource.
Thanks in advance.

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micky
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by micky

As long as it's 10 speed Campagnolo, there should be no problem.

by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Yes it will. A 10 speed uses the same cable pull.

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

Super, thanks.

JoO
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by JoO

I am not sure. I believe the latest version of veloce had a different cable pull. Similar to 2014 record/chorus. I tried it it in the workstand and it shifted fine (chorus 2014 shifters with latest gen veloce)
My old centaur 2009 did not shift with latest gen veloce. Could be due to my crappy mechanical skills. So better double check.

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by graeme_f_k

bm0p700f wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:52 pm
Yes it will. A 10 speed uses the same cable pull.
All 10s cable pull is the same - however there is not complete inter-compatibility, so some of the comments in this thread are not correct.

Xenon 2002 onwards, Mirage 2004 onwards and Veloce / Centaur 2006 onwards (with the exception of specific versions of Veloce and Centaur RDs made 2010->2012) had weaker return springs and whilst they can work "OK", are a bit fiddlier for initial adjustment and adjustment tends to drift a bit with dirt / wear and tear.

At the lever, the reduction, in terms of the force the RD exterts on the nipple of the cable is approx 10-15%.

The RE and CH 10s levers in all year-versions, had, as part of their design, a built in "overshift" function. If the pull back on the inner is insufficient at the lever, the overshift function can't work correctly and so you get a situation where you can set up good upshift but poor or laggy downshift, or vice versa. Occasionally you can get a good set up on both chainrings but the set-up is very fiddly, as mentioned, with very little "wriggle room" either way - hence dirt, wear and tear etc become difficult or impossible to adjust for.

In a correctly specified system, you have approximately 1/2 turn on the barrel adjuster in either direction to play with ... within that boundary, you have acceptable shifting. If you are lucky with a weaker return spring system driving full ErgoPower levers, that falls to, typically, less than 1/4 turn each way. In UltraShift 10s systems, in about 25% of cases you can't get them to shift correctly at all, unless you use one of the specific versions of VE or CE RD I referred to above, or RE / CH which never underwent the change to return spring tension.

Escape-type and later, PowerShift 10s levers use a different mechanism, acheive the overshift a different way and so are suited to the lower-strength return spring RDs.

In practice, if the cable runs are external and simple, with 10s RE or CH levers, the lower return spring tension doesn't usually produce big problems - but if you have more complex runs, tighter bends (as is the case on some very compact 'bars) or, for instance, the under BB shell tunnels are worn / dirty etc ... then you can hit issues. Ditto using most third party cables, or plastic end-ferrules as they themselves increase friction and so shift-stiction.

It's a relatively expensive way out of the problem but in cases where we've struggled with older 10s full ErgoPower levers and the lower spring tension RDs, we have found that the 12s "Maximum Smoothness" inners make enough difference to take a "no-go" to a "go".

Having said all of that, you could run a current Veloce 10s, medium cage, with the Centaur 10s 12-30 cassette (still available) with your existing levers, so long as you are careful to consider the above comments.

Cut your outer sections carefully, dead square at the ends (grind or file if necessary) and use metal ferrules and on most externally cabled bikes, you should be OK.
If the bike is internally cabled, use ferrules with a nylon tongue where the gear cables pass into and out of the frame and possibly Maximum Smoothness inners and you may well be OK but be ready for more frequent maintenance.

Don't oil the cable inners, BTW. It can cause hydraulic stiction which is greater than the cable friction that you are trying to overcome.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

JoO wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:05 pm
I am not sure. I believe the latest version of veloce had a different cable pull. Similar to 2014 record/chorus. I tried it it in the workstand and it shifted fine (chorus 2014 shifters with latest gen veloce)
My old centaur 2009 did not shift with latest gen veloce. Could be due to my crappy mechanical skills. So better double check.
No, cable pull to derailleur movement has not changed since 10s was introduced.
Return spring tension has - see the full notes I have posted.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

Catagory6
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by Catagory6

12-30 10-speed campy cassette with record short cage works fine for me with a 34/50 compact crankset. 30/50 combo works fine, but i don't go into the 2 inner/outer sprockets when in the opposite chainring

i do 11-32 cassette with short cage, on my 11-speed set up. i just make very certain that i don't go into 32/50 combo

on my other 10-speed i've changed the cable pull ratio at the derailleur, by displacing where the cable is clamped further outward, with a thin washer. and i use a 12-36 shimano cassette, with a medium cage. i can disassemble and get the exact diameter of the washer, and do a step-by-step directions for this procedure. because the cable has to be routed slightly differently after it gets clamped at the derailleur.
again, a short cage would work fine with a 12-32 shimano cassette. with the 12-36 the upper jockey wheel is really too close to the cogs on the 36 sprocket.
shimano xt cs-m771 11-34 would be perfect. might even work with a short cage if you make sure not to cross chain?
but i put on a 48-tooth chainring from TA Specialites (Nerius for 110 bcd). a 46-tooth would probably solve the cross-chaining problem. but with this particular chainring the bolt tab that screws into the crank needs to be filed down to 2.78 because its slightly too thick, and the chainrings slightly deflect inwards at the dirve-side crank arm

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Your likely to lack chain tension with such large range cassettes in some gear combinations. The fact you consider a shimano cassettes spacing to work with campag 10 speed does say to all your definition of work is probably a bit noisey and clunky for many. Such a combo is a no go for me.

I forgot about the weaker return spring. Thanks for reminding me.

Gfk's comment about the maximium smoothness cable is true. It the only way i got my look 795 to shift well (not perfect though). It was never made for campag kit it turns out. It really need Shimano di2 (shudder as i don't like the shifter shape).

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

Thanks awfully to those of you in the know. You know who you are.

Catagory6
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by Catagory6

bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:03 am
Your likely to lack chain tension with such large range cassettes in some gear combinations. The fact you consider a shimano cassettes spacing to work with campag 10 speed does say to all your definition of work is probably a bit noisey and clunky for many. Such a combo is a no go for me.

I forgot about the weaker return spring. Thanks for reminding me.

Gfk's comment about the maximium smoothness cable is true. It the only way i got my look 795 to shift well (not perfect though). It was never made for campag kit it turns out. It really need Shimano di2 (shudder as i don't like the shifter shape).
chain tension is fine, and clamping the cable further outward with the washer makes the shimano cassette work perfectly.

by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

We you altered the cable pull then. I missed that bit.

I can tell you however i have had no chain tension in 39/12 when i tried a 12-32t with a short cage rd. It does not work with every bike. Medium cage works better but its still not ideal. The cassette shape is wrong. As the cassette wears shifting speed will slow sooner than with the recommended cassettes. So work perfectly no. Not perfect at all.

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