Luescher Teknik's Thoughts on new bikes

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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Kayrehn
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by Kayrehn

https://youtu.be/aQ5aNlfRBr4

Guy basically says new bikes are not worth the shitload of money the manufacturers are asking for now. He's quite fuddy duddy imo and I played the video at 2x speed, but I like his point (which is relevant to this forum) on how far claimed weight of frames are from their actual weight, and if something so easily verifiable can be faked, why should we accept their aero claims? Also likes his point on how laughable a return to threaded BBs is now touted as an improvement.



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Raimundo
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by Raimundo

Raoul tells it like it is. Appears to be a very honest men, despite being in the business. One of the few that feels the force :D

I'm always suspicious of the bike industry kool-aid, everytime a new generation model comes out, but like most of us i can't disprove the PR mambo jambo, i don't have the tech to do so.

Nowadays i try to choose my frames in a more empirical way, if brand X or Z has a good reputation on durability and tolerances, i give it a go. After that comes costumer service reputation and then looks...

by Weenie


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kgt
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by kgt

Exactly.
Great video! At last, Luescher becomes more 'hambiniesque' by saying how things really are. A lot of rubbish being sold at the price of gold that is.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

You can pretty reliably test CdA outdoors with the Chung method, perhaps not to the resolution of 1-2W, but just beyond that at typical threshold power.

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Raimundo
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by Raimundo

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:27 am
You can pretty reliably test CdA outdoors with the Chung method, perhaps not to the resolution of 1-2W, but just beyond that at typical threshold power.
Nice, probably will try this out to fine tune my position on the bike instead of the frameset itself, though.

When not on a full on aero frameset, i believe basic areas like tuck position, handlebar width and helmet choice, play a bigger role than the all the PR bait frame manufacturers want to convince us of.

Butcher
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by Butcher

Since when has the cost of making an item dictate the final cost to the public?

Companies charge what they do because they believe the market will support it. It's not just bikes, it's everything we buy.

I do not want to live in a country that dicates how much a company can sell a product. None of us knows how much it takes to make a bike frame. From the first minute of the meeting to talk about it to the final delivery to the local bike store. I suspect that is about 3 years and that is 3 years of a product not being sold. I also wonder how many items that get shelved and no money was made, just wasted.

I like Luescher, but this video is all about him selling ads on YouTube. The way I think of it, he took just under 20 mins to make a video. It cost him nothing to make it, just time. He should probably get minimum wage for speaking his mind. Somehow, that video will make him much more than that. Probably on the same percentages of many companies charge for their products.

If it costs too much for something you want, don't buy it. Companies sell items for the highest price they they can and certainly enough to keep the doors open. Why is that so bad? They are not selling anything you do not need.

If Specialized can sell a SW frame for a couple grand more, hats off to them. It appears that they have done a good job because it appears they are sold out and no one had their arm twisted/broken to buy them.

Luescher should stick with the internals of a carbon frame and not how capitalism works.

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Raimundo
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by Raimundo

Butcher wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:30 pm
Since when has the cost of making an item dictate the final cost to the public?

Companies charge what they do because they believe the market will support it. It's not just bikes, it's everything we buy.

I do not want to live in a country that dicates how much a company can sell a product. None of us knows how much it takes to make a bike frame. From the first minute of the meeting to talk about it to the final delivery to the local bike store. I suspect that is about 3 years and that is 3 years of a product not being sold. I also wonder how many items that get shelved and there would never be any money to be made.

I like Luescher, but this video is all about him selling ads on YouTube. They way I think of it, he took just under 20 mins to make a video. It cost him nothing to make it, just time. He should probably get minimum wage for speaking his mind. Somehow, that video will make him much more than that. Probably on the same percentages of many companies.

If it costs too much for something you want, don't buy it. Companies sell items for the highest price they they can and certainly enough to keep the doors open. Why is that so bad? They are not selling anything you do not need.

If Specialized can sell a SW frame for a couple grand more, hats off to them. It appears that they have done a good job because it appears they are sold out and no one had their arm twisted/broken to buy them.

I think you're mising the point.

For the asking price of a nice frameset one would expect good reliability (i.e. failures JRA), good tolerances (thats why Hambini got so knowned btw), good quality control (getting lemons out of the box)...

Raul is not doing it for free, thats obvious, but he shows that nowadays price/quality of non custom manufactures is very, very far from ideal.

Butcher
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by Butcher

To be honest, I gave up in the first few minutes [after the ad] and when it mentioned the SW frame being $2k over a standard frame and that the higher grade materials did not justify that price jump, I stopped. Same old garbage different face.

I'm not saying that bike frames or any other component are the best that can be, but if it was as bad as they indicate, the bikes would be failing regularly.

I guess the way I Iook at it is, there are problems everywhere. If I was paid, I could find many of them. Just because there is a void, does not make the frame worthless/unsafe? Could it be improved? Yes. Have companies done a better job? Yes. If there is a wrinkle inside the tube that can only be found by cutting it apart, does it really matter? Will the frame blow up on a ride? Is it weaker to the point that it fails a load test?

I have not watched all the videos, but the ones I've seen are cut up, problems found, and none of the problems found failed. Just poorly done. I do recall one video that someone stated they are doing a better job making frames. Isn't that all you can expect? Could you imagine if Apple, Microsoft, and many others made a perfect product the first and every item that rolled off the line? Software updates would be a thing of the past

I can only imagine what is behind the walls of my house. It's 100 years old and I suspect has plenty of defects. Still holding up and I suspect that it can hold up for several more years.

The sky is not falling, maybe cloudy somedays, but surely no typhoon.

I've said my peace. There is no reason to trash this thread any more. I look forward for other inputs.

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Raimundo
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by Raimundo

Butcher wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:22 pm
To be honest, I gave up in the first few minutes [after the ad] and when it mentioned the SW frame being $2k over a standard frame and that the higher grade materials did not justify that price jump, I stopped. Same old garbage different face.

I'm not saying that bike frames or any other component are the best that can be, but if it was as bad as they indicate, the bikes would be failing regularly.

I guess the way I Iook at it is, there are problems everywhere. If I was paid, I could find many of them. Just because there is a void, does not make the frame worthless/unsafe? Could it be improved? Yes. Have companies done a better job? Yes. If there is a wrinkle inside the tube that can only be found by cutting it apart, does it really matter? Will the frame blow up on a ride? Is it weaker to the point that it fails a load test?

I have not watched all the videos, but the ones I've seen are cut up, problems found, and none of the problems found failed. Just poorly done. I do recall one video that someone stated they are doing a better job making frames. Isn't that all you can expect? Could you imagine if Apple, Microsoft, and many others made a perfect product the first and every item that rolled off the line? Software updates would be a thing of the past

I can only imagine what is behind the walls of my house. It's 100 years old and I suspect has plenty of defects. Still holding up and I suspect that it can hold up for several more years.

The sky is not falling, maybe cloudy somedays, but surely no typhoon.

I've said my peace. There is no reason to trash this thread any more. I look forward for other inputs.
You deserve to know where i come from, regarding opinion. it's not hearsay.

On the last 3 years i had 4 carbon framesets ( its not as bad as it seems, 1st world problems...)

Two Canyon Ultimate SLX (both top tube failures JRA) the third SLX frameset i sold unused on eBay (at half price because i knew the buyer would not have factory warranty) after i got it as a replacement, i got traumatized with the possibility i would have to deal with Canyon's costumer service again.

The fourth frameset is a 2021 Giant TCR SL frameset. i was one of the first guys in europe to preorder it, it arrived last month and when i took it out of the box i realized it had a severe layer compactation problem. TCR replacement warranty frame will arrive end of september if i am lucky, its a 2021 product afterall and the corona affair is not helping with distribution either.

None of these framesets has a high price as a Tarmac or an Emonda or even an F12, but they still command respectable amounts of cash and are regarded as good World tour frames with respective PR and reutation.

Why do i share the same opinion as Raoul. because every one of these failures meant i had to stop my training plan, had to convince costumer service (with tangible proof) that it was not my fault, every time. And it also meant i had to have an estra training bike with powermeter as a back up (more investment from me).

And finaly, i was unable to enjoy my high end frames and groupsets because i was always without them... Canyon nor Giant disagreed with me, but warranty claims are a complex process and take their time, sometimes months at a time.

Price/quality is not there in my opininon, just like Luescher Teknik's suggests.

Not trying to trash this thread or be against you, but it's not that benign.

Wookski
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by Wookski

Raimundo wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:51 pm
he shows that nowadays price/quality of non custom manufactures is very, very far from ideal.
This isn't just limited to factory bikes, there are custom manufacturers pumping out low quality products with poor tolerances.

There will always be a large market for those wanting the latest s-works, SLR, FXX whatever. Choice is a wonderful thing- you can go down that path or for similar $ Nick Crumpton can build you a masterpiece.

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Raimundo
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by Raimundo

Wookski wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:13 pm
Raimundo wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:51 pm
he shows that nowadays price/quality of non custom manufactures is very, very far from ideal.
This isn't just limited to factory bikes, there are custom manufacturers pumping out low quality products with poor tolerances.

There will always be a large market for those wanting the latest s-works, SLR, FXX whatever. Choice is a wonderful thing- you can go down that path or for similar $ Nick Crumpton can build you a masterpiece.
Indeed.

If i wake up cross eyed tomorrow, i might as well ask for a refund on my TCR and go for a Cherubim racer instead. :D

On the meanwhile i always have my backup training bike (aluminium), that soon enough will be nicknamed "The cockroach ", the bike that just wont die. :lol:

robertbb
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by robertbb

Wookski wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:13 pm
Raimundo wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:51 pm
he shows that nowadays price/quality of non custom manufactures is very, very far from ideal.
This isn't just limited to factory bikes, there are custom manufacturers pumping out low quality products with poor tolerances.

There will always be a large market for those wanting the latest s-works, SLR, FXX whatever. Choice is a wonderful thing- you can go down that path or for similar $ Nick Crumpton can build you a masterpiece.
Bingo!

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Kayrehn
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by Kayrehn

I think the big brands attract people who wants better aero frames, hence their ability to price their off the shelf bikes exorbitantly. The market can charge accordingly of course (the higher price tag is often the draw in the luxury good market), I just find it a little silly to make a purchase decision on the aero claims of a manufacturer when they can't even be honest with their frame weight. It seems more rational to buy a top tier bike cos of the new season's colours because at least you know what you are getting. Aero gains are real but when everyone claims their bike is the fastest, who can you trust.

(Crumpton over S-Works for me too!)


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kgt
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by kgt

+1


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by Weenie


benzebub
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by benzebub

Age old discussion..

As for me, I ride a bespoke steel bike. I wanted another bike last year and test rode a lot of new carbon bikes. Yes, they were lighter, but not more comfortable, stiffer,.. than my steel frame.

So for the same money (even less if you go to certain brands) I decided to have another steel frame made with personalised geometry , custom paint and the Campagnolo groupset I wanted (which wasn't available on any catalogue bike).

For me it's the logical choice, but I'm me and there are about 7 billion other people on the planet who all have different needs and opinions.

In my country we have a saying: "de prijs is wat de gek ervoor geeft".
Translated it says: "The price is dictated by what the fool wants to give"
But I could be wrong

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