Virus And Riding.

[Mr.Gib]

Believe me it is a very, very sad deja-vu for us.

I question your analysis of the situation. Communist dictatorships that turn their populations into virtual prisoners do so to crush opposition and maintain power. All other considerations are secondary or non-existant. Governments that ask people to wear a mask, or be vaccinated do so first to save lives and second to protect the economic well being of the population. Not sure how you see the two as similar. And it's not a slippery slope, just fundamentally routine health care but on a massive scale. Would you be happier if governments just left their people alone? Those are the options.

Perhaps your sentiments are a vestige of the trauma of growing up under communism. Maybe it caused even more damage than you thought. Sorry you had to go through any of it. Tell me it wasn't Albania?

[ico]

Believe me it is a very, very sad deja-vu for us.

I question your analysis of the situation. Communist dictatorships that turn their populations into virtual prisoners do so to crush opposition and maintain power. All other considerations are secondary or non-existant. Governments that ask people to wear a mask, or be vaccinated do so first to save lives and second to protect the economic well being of the population. Not sure how you see the two as similar. And it's not a slippery slope, just fundamentally routine health care but on a massive scale. Would you be happier if governments just left their people alone? Those are the options.

Perhaps your sentiments are a vestige of the trauma of growing up under communism. Maybe it caused even more damage than you thought. Sorry you had to go through any of it. Tell me it wasn't Albania?

First of all, you are completely wrong if you think that "To a lot of people communism sounded great, but it turns out they couldn't handle the starvation." as you wrote in your previous post. I can assure you, that food was very affordable and in very good quality. What was missing, was the freedom.

You oversimplify the situation. I did analyze the situation more in detail in my previous post, you can find some answers there. I can't comment on Albania as I never been there. You sound to me a bit superior...

[TobinHatesYou]

Dead people don’t have freedom. Former poster dvq crashed his gravel bike hard last week here in the Bay Area. His ER wait time was already 8 hours. This is in the Bay Area which is seeing higher vaccination rates and lower infection rates than other large metropolitan areas. Places like Austin, TX, which is progesssive by Texas standards have run out of ICU beds. People are going to start dying again, and it’s not just COVID patients. Pedestrians hit by cars, construction accidents, heart attacks, etc. those people won’t be able to get ICU beds.

We accept “No shirt, no shoes, no service” yet somehow a cloth mask has been politicized. This clearly hasn’t happened in various free or not-so-free Asian countries. It seems as if mask wearing and other regulatory action isn’t really the issue you think it is. It’s just another bogeyman created by conspiracy theorists and misled conservatives.

[LeDuke]

I kind of want to take a vacation to SoCal and ride around until I run into OnTheRivet.

He sounds like a real fun guy to be around.

Who uses the term “beta” to describe another person?


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[Mr.Gib]

Believe me it is a very, very sad deja-vu for us.

I question your analysis of the situation. Communist dictatorships that turn their populations into virtual prisoners do so to crush opposition and maintain power. All other considerations are secondary or non-existant. Governments that ask people to wear a mask, or be vaccinated do so first to save lives and second to protect the economic well being of the population. Not sure how you see the two as similar. And it's not a slippery slope, just fundamentally routine health care but on a massive scale. Would you be happier if governments just left their people alone? Those are the options.

Perhaps your sentiments are a vestige of the trauma of growing up under communism. Maybe it caused even more damage than you thought. Sorry you had to go through any of it. Tell me it wasn't Albania?

First of all, you are completely wrong if you think that "To a lot of people communism sounded great, but it turns out they couldn't handle the starvation." as you wrote in your previous post. I can assure you, that food was very affordable and in very good quality. What was missing, was the freedom.

You oversimplify the situation. I did analyze the situation more in detail in my previous post, you can find some answers there. I can't comment on Albania as I never been there.

The "couldn't handle the starvation" phrase was metaphorical. Meant to represent the deprivation of all sorts and you can include freedom with that if you want. That's not to say that there wasn't massive starvation. From 1959 to 1961 30 million Chinese starved to death from forced adherance to Communist ideology, and 12 million starved in the Soviet Union in a year or two in the 1930's. Cuba has food shortages right now.

You don't have to go to Albania to be aware that it is the ultimate lesson in the abject failure and destructiveness of communist totalitarianism. The story of Albania up to 1985 should be common knowlege among people genuinely concerned with freedom because there is no stronger argument why freedom and the rights of the individual must supercede those of the state.

You sound to me a bit superior...

Thank you. And sorry if I offended you. My undergrad degrees are in political science and economics, and though I teach mostly organization behaviour and marketing, my academic involvement in political science and economics remains near constant. Don't expect me to diminish my confidence in my knowledge of this topic or my frankness in presenting that knowledge just to appeal to the sensitivities of some portion of the audience. That and I really like to flex on these issues.

On a more serious note, I appreciate your thoughtful analysis and argument and recognize that it serves as an important reminder of how things can go bad if citizens are not vigilant. This sentiment is in effect the essential guard dog of democracy. Your argument, or something like has always been instantly raised here in Canada if the government oversteps its mandate by the even the smallest degree on any issue at all. I just have not seen the evidence that suggests that current public health measures to mitigate Covid are steps in the direction of totalitarianism.

[ico]

Believe me it is a very, very sad deja-vu for us.

I question your analysis of the situation. Communist dictatorships that turn their populations into virtual prisoners do so to crush opposition and maintain power. All other considerations are secondary or non-existant. Governments that ask people to wear a mask, or be vaccinated do so first to save lives and second to protect the economic well being of the population. Not sure how you see the two as similar. And it's not a slippery slope, just fundamentally routine health care but on a massive scale. Would you be happier if governments just left their people alone? Those are the options.

Perhaps your sentiments are a vestige of the trauma of growing up under communism. Maybe it caused even more damage than you thought. Sorry you had to go through any of it. Tell me it wasn't Albania?

First of all, you are completely wrong if you think that "To a lot of people communism sounded great, but it turns out they couldn't handle the starvation." as you wrote in your previous post. I can assure you, that food was very affordable and in very good quality. What was missing, was the freedom.

You oversimplify the situation. I did analyze the situation more in detail in my previous post, you can find some answers there. I can't comment on Albania as I never been there.

The "couldn't handle the starvation" phrase was metaphorical. Meant to represent the deprivation of all sorts and you can include freedom with that if you want. That's not to say that there wasn't massive starvation. From 1959 to 1961 30 million Chinese starved to death from forced adherance to Communist ideology, and 12 million starved in the Soviet Union in a year or two in the 1930's. Cuba has food shortages right now.

You don't have to go to Albania to be aware that it is the ultimate lesson in the abject failure and destructiveness of communist totalitarianism. This story of Albania up to 1985 should be common knowlege among people genuinely concerned with freedom because there is no stronger argument why freedom and the rights of the individual must supercede those of the state.

You sound to me a bit superior...

Thank you. And sorry if it bothers you. My undergrad degrees are in political science and economics, and though I teach mostly organization behaviour and marketing, my academic involvement in political science and economics remains near constant. Don't expect me to diminish my confidence in my knowledge of this topic or my frankness in presenting that knowledge just to appeal to the sensitivities of some portion of the audience. That and I really like to flex on these issues.

On a more serious note, I appreciate your thoughtful analysis and argument and recognize that serves as an important reminder of how things can go bad if citizens are not vigilant. This sentiment is in effect the essential guard dog of democracy. Your argument, or something like has always been instantly raised here in Canada if the government oversteps its mandate by the even the smallest degree on any issue at all. I just have not seen the evidence that suggests that current public health measure to mitigate Covid are steps in the direction of totalitarianism.

Oh! Now it was metaphorical... You made me laugh. You wrote "communism" so it was clearly in general, not specific countries which you added later to argue. I have no trauma at all, just experience and knowledge. The country where I grown up despite its communist past (becasuse some powerful countries decided so), was so developed, that now the region is among the leading regions in the ranking of regional GDP in EU. So, no starving at all. Except restricted travel, but now you have it restricted too. Worldwide. Find your paralels and your evidence... And on the academic note you mentioned, while not understand the irony. Our oldest univesity was found in 15th century. Probably few centuries before Canada's first university, but I'm not going to refer this fact to anything in general, even that your posts made me thinking of standard and level of education you got. You took everything so straightforward that you remind me an amplifier and your arguing is pure verbalism and more of an attacking. I'm not going to spend more time with you, but don't forget (or you might even know from your "studies") that every totality started with high protecting ideas.

[basilic]

About "communism sounded great to a lot of people": I don't think these regimes were put in place by fair democratic mechanisms, it was either revolutions (not that they weren't deserved) or the Stalin appeasement deal at yalta.
imo all government action deserves citizen vigilance. The Swiss constitutions tasks the government with preserving public safety, but also guarantees the freedom to meet in public spaces, fredom of movement, to pursue work, to study, etc. So it's a judgment call. At what point does the public menace no longer justify the suspension of constitutional rights/freedoms. Importantly, the question is NOT "what is optimal from a public health standpoint", or we would have banned smoking, and possibly cycling on public roads as well.

[ultimobici]

The country where I grown up despite its communist past (becasuse some powerful countries decided so), was so developed, that now the region is among the leading regions in the ranking of regional GDP in EU.

Nothing to do with the billions of DM pumped in after reunification?

And on the academic note you mentioned, while not understand the irony. Our oldest univesity was found in 15th century. Probably few centuries before Canada's first university, but I'm not going to refer this fact to anything in general, even that your posts made me thinking of standard and level of education you got. You took everything so straightforward that you remind me an amplifier and your arguing is pure verbalism and more of an attacking. I'm not going to spend more time with you, but don't forget (or you might even know from your "studies") that every totality started with high protecting ideas.

Despite this long tradition of higher education, totalitarianism took root bad flourished.


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[ico]

The country where I grown up despite its communist past (becasuse some powerful countries decided so), was so developed, that now the region is among the leading regions in the ranking of regional GDP in EU.

Nothing to do with the billions of DM pumped in after reunification?

And on the academic note you mentioned, while not understand the irony. Our oldest univesity was found in 15th century. Probably few centuries before Canada's first university, but I'm not going to refer this fact to anything in general, even that your posts made me thinking of standard and level of education you got. You took everything so straightforward that you remind me an amplifier and your arguing is pure verbalism and more of an attacking. I'm not going to spend more time with you, but don't forget (or you might even know from your "studies") that every totality started with high protecting ideas.

Despite this long tradition of higher education, totalitarianism took root bad flourished.


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What worries me is this kind of thinking, which Corona brings up.


Try to fight tanks with education... and don't forget that those billions went either straight to big intl.concerns as a support of their investments as they privatised local companies to get back those funds.

[ultimobici]

The country where I grown up despite its communist past (becasuse some powerful countries decided so), was so developed, that now the region is among the leading regions in the ranking of regional GDP in EU.

Nothing to do with the billions of DM pumped in after reunification?

And on the academic note you mentioned, while not understand the irony. Our oldest univesity was found in 15th century. Probably few centuries before Canada's first university, but I'm not going to refer this fact to anything in general, even that your posts made me thinking of standard and level of education you got. You took everything so straightforward that you remind me an amplifier and your arguing is pure verbalism and more of an attacking. I'm not going to spend more time with you, but don't forget (or you might even know from your "studies") that every totality started with high protecting ideas.

Despite this long tradition of higher education, totalitarianism took root bad flourished.


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What worries me is this kind of thinking, which Corona brings up.


Try to fight tanks with education... and don't forget that those billions went either straight to big intl.concerns as a support of their investments as they privatised local companies to get back those funds.

My point was that East Germany has had epic amounts of investment since reunification which is much of the reason for its success on the last 30 years.

As for the tanks v education, I’m pretty sure there were no tanks involved in the interwar years.


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[ico]

The country where I grown up despite its communist past (becasuse some powerful countries decided so), was so developed, that now the region is among the leading regions in the ranking of regional GDP in EU.

Nothing to do with the billions of DM pumped in after reunification?

And on the academic note you mentioned, while not understand the irony. Our oldest univesity was found in 15th century. Probably few centuries before Canada's first university, but I'm not going to refer this fact to anything in general, even that your posts made me thinking of standard and level of education you got. You took everything so straightforward that you remind me an amplifier and your arguing is pure verbalism and more of an attacking. I'm not going to spend more time with you, but don't forget (or you might even know from your "studies") that every totality started with high protecting ideas.

Despite this long tradition of higher education, totalitarianism took root bad flourished.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What worries me is this kind of thinking, which Corona brings up.


Try to fight tanks with education... and don't forget that those billions went either straight to big intl.concerns as a support of their investments as they privatised local companies to get back those funds.

My point was that East Germany has had epic amounts of investment since reunification which is much of the reason for its success on the last 30 years.

As for the tanks v education, I’m pretty sure there were no tanks involved in the interwar years.


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OMG Did you hear about Soviet invasion in Czechoslovakia in 1968? No? Nevermind...as a knowledgeable expert feel free discussing themes you know nothing about.

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/ ... ng/567916/

Or Hungary?
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/magazine-37680610

[Mr.Gib]

I'm starting to miss OnTheRivet. Damned omega bailed on us just as it was getting good.

[MattMay]

Yeh I even bought extra popcorn.

[Mr.Gib]

Importantly, the question is NOT "what is optimal from a public health standpoint", or we would have banned smoking, and possibly cycling on public roads as well.

Wouldn't a greater amount of cycling have a net positive health benefit? Perhaps the benefit of the excersize would outweigh the harm from injury.

And smoking is in a way banned in Canada. Can't do it in most public places or the workplace, prohibited near the entry of buildings, illegal in a car with children in some jursidictions, and the taxes on cigarettes are so high that the cost has become prohibitive. Imagine being forced to take your smoke break outside in downtown Winnipeg in January. Will a cigarette even burn at minus 40 degrees and 80 km/h wind speed?
Consequently smoking in Canada is down to 10% and that is mostly limited to some rural areas, lower socio-economic demographics, and some immigrant groups. Likewise for Covid, it is possible for governments in civilized countries to avoid resorting to strong arm tactics. Just good policy to encourage vaccination and responsible behaviour. Make it expensive and inconvenient to be unvaccinated. Unfortunately we face the challenge of much greater urgency which will increases support for more drastic measures.

[nickf]

All these opinions from Canadians that have socialized healthcare. It's just good business sense to make it almost anything illegal that is known to cause health issues. That's just a good business move for a government-run socialized healthcare system. On the flip side, why do many Canadians come into the US for their healthcare needs and pay out of pocket? Probably the same reason my fiancés family immigrated to the US. They go on about how terrible socialized healthcare in the UK is. How there is a massive lack of facilities, long waits for procedures, long waits for everything. Better off going to a private hospital to get care. Just as an example Florida alone has some 59,000 hospital beds, the whole of Ireland 14,500. So yeah with pure lack of facilities and the government paying the bills they sure will use strong-arm tactics.

I personally believe it should be an individual's choice as to what is injected into their bodies. I think that choice should be made after reviewing the data and making an informed decision.