Virus And Riding.

[Orbital]

Also from PBS



And here is a more entertaining example from "Uncle Rob"

If you think masking is anything more than control/political theatre you are fooling yourself.

If it is really about control as you say, what control exactly is the govt. gaining over us? What benefit does the govt get from having people wear masks? What benefit does the govt get from having people stay home and effectively destroy the economy? And how did the govt coordinate hundreds of thousands of doctors, scientists, health services, local governments, and the rest of the world, to get in line with this plan of controling us? Yeah, critical thinking.


.

Are you kidding me? A couple of random You Tube videos as proof that masks work over a statement by the Director for Infectious Disease, Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota I could go into a long Diatribe about why this is happening but it comes down to Money and Power. If you think it's not that, you surely have not been paying attention.

I don’t think the argument is that anything but an N95 is useless, it’s more that anything is better than nothing. At least here in Canada that’s been the message. If I sneeze into my double ply mask, it’s loads more effective than just sneezing straight into someone. Besides, I don’t need a study to tell me that the fact there wasn’t a flu season is a direct result of the recommendations put in place. That’s just my experience.

[jmomentum]

Unfortunately we have to let the conspiracy theorists go. No need to waste our energy and health debating with these people. They are lost. It is sad. They have abandoned reason and critical thinking and are desperately trying to bring everyone else down with them. Friends come and go. Better to see these people for who they truly are.

[synchronicity]

One of the things I do miss about the old days is if a condescending prick like you tried to talk to me like this face to face I'd just knock him out.

Oh you're one of those types. Violence to solve everything eh?
I can't say I'm really surprised.
You might be a mechanical engineer, but science trumps engineering.
Go back and do a science degree, then come here and talk. I've done mine.

Also, you wanted to debate, not to be "attacked" (even though you were the one that inferred resorting to physical violence), but I notice you haven't answered a single one of MoPho's questions. Not a single one. Can you please answer MoPho's questions? Here they are again:

If it is really about control as you say, what control exactly is the govt. gaining over us?
What benefit does the govt get from having people wear masks?
What benefit does the govt get from having people stay home and effectively destroy the economy?
And how did the govt coordinate hundreds of thousands of doctors, scientists, health services, local governments, and the rest of the world, to get in line with this plan of controling us?

So let's debate this properly then. I don't disagree with what you quoted from Michael Osterholm.
Yes some masks provide better protection than others.
Yes masks should be worn over the nose. Who is saying it shouldn't be?
I just wonder why everything is written in capital letters. Makes it harder to read.

Do you think the virus itself is a hoax? Or not?

[synchronicity]

When you have an operation, do you want the surgeon to wear a mask? Or not?

[ico]

Also from PBS



And here is a more entertaining example from "Uncle Rob"

If you think masking is anything more than control/political theatre you are fooling yourself.

If it is really about control as you say, what control exactly is the govt. gaining over us? What benefit does the govt get from having people wear masks? What benefit does the govt get from having people stay home and effectively destroy the economy? And how did the govt coordinate hundreds of thousands of doctors, scientists, health services, local governments, and the rest of the world, to get in line with this plan of controling us? Yeah, critical thinking.


.

.

It is difficult to explain. Even book is not enough. But I can tell you from my personal experience as someone who lived in totalitarian communist part of Europe (now part of EU) how much such a small regulations of personal freedom affects your future behaviours in a time. You would be surprised. You are strongly underestimate it.

To respond to you question:
- Communist completely destroyed the economy - to build the new one and with the "right" people. The former were put in prisons for long term sentences.
- No one need to coordinate anyone. It is the fear that did it for them in the end. Now it is a conformism and opportunism.

It is happening step by step while you still assure yourself it won't go that far. I would call it a partial dehumanisation what we had experienced and the same is happening now. I give you a small absurd example, because it was all completely absurd. What do you think was the reason that communists won't let me as a teenage have a hair cut I wanted, or I cannot have a bag with for example AC/DC written on it? It was a fact that everything was forbiden except what wasn't allowed and recommended - the opposite to democracy - simply controlled. They simply create a threat (behind the borders), therefore borders must be closed and we cannot travel. Not similar? Do you know what they claimed was the reason? A world peace. Yes, you can laugh, yes. (today it is a Covid free world). If you had listened to such a capitalist and imperialsts bands (which of course was only illegally distributed), then you did not support the world peace. You did not support, you can not study, do sport etc.. Do you see the similarities? No? Wait what will happen with Covid sceptics. Commands, commands, commands...There are lot of simmilarities and we often turn our heads in shock, what ideology that is comming you are accepting in countries which once were the symbol of freedom for us.... Believe me it is a very, very sad deja-vu for us.

[synchronicity]

1) Wearing masks means that you're more anonymous when you go out and about. Not less. Wouldn't a surveillance state want the cameras to see your face?

2) I don't like QR codes, but not because it's impinging on my personal freedoms. Because I don't always carry a smartphone. Like when I go out riding for example. Not everyone has smartphones. It's discriminatory against people who don't have smartphones. That's all there is to it. There should always be a physical book that you can sign, but that isn't always available. Last time I was told it was "digital only".

3) An analogy for "you people". Normally, let's say the speed limit on a main road is 80km/hr. What is happening now with covid is no different to temporary road works being imposed for your own safety. The government, the state, that is the state that has been democratically elected by the majority, they temporarily set the speed limit to 40km/hr because with all the people working and their equipment and the poor road surface, it's more dangerous to drive through.

Now, yes you can still drive at 80km/hr if you so wish. You can drive at 120 if you want. You're free to do that. There are no controls on your car forcing you to drive at the speed limit. But if you and you alone choose to do that the law will eventually catch up with you. You know, I don't see many people complaining about road work speed limit reductions impacting their personal freedom. Mainly because we all know they are only going to be temporary. They're a minor inconvenience.

And the virus situation is no different. It's temporary (at least until another strain or another virus comes along). Just like no one is holding a gun to your head for you to put a mask on. You're free to go around and not wear a mask. But the law is the law and you may just get fined for it. It's mostly voluntary compliance.

But what you paranoid covid-denier government-control-freaks are trying to argue is that the 40km/hr limits are not just going to be imposed everywhere and on every single road, but that they're going to "remain forever". Seriously? That's a bit of a stretch in anyone's imagination. But that's not what's happening is it? Where I live, the lockdown is less severe than in other major cities. That's because there's no virus in my town. I can walk around outside without a mask and I can exercise. And, guess what? When number of infections decrease, the lockdowns do end. There's no government telling people to lockdown after the virus has subsided.

4) Do you really expect there to be no pandemics in the world, ever? If there are 7 billion people on this planet, that's approximately 14 billion lungs. That's a lot of potential real estate space for a virus to evolve in and infect. That's what all this is about. Survival of the fittest. And those who can adapt. Nature couldn't care less about anti-vaxxers and covid deniers. No one is looking out for us. There's no higher power controlling it all. It's just the way nature works. So as much as some people believe, this isn't some kind of "punishment". You can pray too like they were told to do in Indonesia. Perhaps they didn't bend over far enough or something, or they didn't face the right way, because now look at them. They have one of the highest infection rates in the world today.

[MoPho]

It is difficult to explain. Even book is not enough. But I can tell you from my personal experience as someone who lived in totalitarian communist part of Europe (now part of EU) how much such a small regulations of personal freedom affects your future behaviours in a time. You would be surprised. You are strongly underestimate it.

To respond to you question:
- Communist completely destroyed the economy - to build the new one and with the "right" people. The former were put in prisons for long term sentences.
- No one need to coordinate anyone. It is the fear that did it for them in the end. Now it is a conformism and opportunism.

It is happening step by step while you still assure yourself it won't go that far. I would call it a partial dehumanisation what we had experienced and the same is happening now. I give you a small absurd example, because it was all completely absurd. What do you think was the reason that communists won't let me as a teenage have a hair cut I wanted, or I cannot have a bag with for example AC/DC written on it? It was a fact that everything was forbiden except what wasn't allowed and recommended - the opposite to democracy - simply controlled. They simply create a threat (behind the borders), therefore borders must be closed and we cannot travel. Not similar? Do you know what they claimed was the reason? A world peace. Yes, you can laugh, yes. (today it is a Covid free world). If you had listened to such a capitalist and imperialsts bands (which of course was only illegally distributed), then you did not support the world peace. You did not support, you can not study, do sport etc.. Do you see the similarities? No? Wait what will happen with Covid sceptics. Commands, commands, commands...There are lot of simmilarities and we often turn our heads in shock, what ideology that is comming you are accepting in countries which once were the symbol of freedom for us.... Believe me it is a very, very sad deja-vu for us.

Fair point, and I have heard others say it too, and certainly scary. But ontherivet is suggesting that there is some sort master plan and a cabal of people pulling the strings. So who is behind it? Where's the evidence? Given that nearly the whole world is affected by covid and every country affected has put out similar mask rules and restrictions (obviously to different degrees) makes the idea that there is some sort of power takeover pretty unrealistic. Is someone trying to rule the whole world with this? Dr Evil?

Your freedom ends where mine begins, you don't get (or shouldn't get) to make decisions for yourself that negatively affect others, especially in life or death. Covid is not a haircut or album art, it is an infectious and potentially lethal virus that you or I can spread to others. So when you decide to go out without a mask or not get vaccinated, etc., you are making decisions for yourself that potentially affect others.
Additionally, here in the US at least, none of the restrictions have actually been all that strict, or even enforced for that matter, we have had an election, and a change of government during this time that has shown a willingness to lift the restrictions (though prematurely apparently), so fail to see this as evidence of a takeover.
And yes, some have been able to exploit or manage to benefit from the situation for money and/or power, but that alone is not proof of a takeover/control conspiracy.

There are other things that were/are going on here that are far more politically concerning to what you speak of than covid restrictions.

[TobinHatesYou]

If we're going to talk about how communism has ruined lives, we may as well also talk about how capitalism has done the same, only in different ways...and continues to do so.

[Mr.Gib]

Good statistical analysis profile of the vaccine hesitant in the US by the Economist. Pretty much what you'd expect based on anecdotal reporting. More likely to be poor, uneducated, conservative. Also black Americans. LOL that all the affluent, educated conservatives have been vaccinated. Strongest correlating factor was Trump voter - there's a presidential legacy for ya. Problem with this is that it will be very hard to change and may have global implications. Fortunately the poor don't travel much - might be the saving grace for the US. Anti vax used to be California liberal hippie soccer moms who thought they knew better than doctors that you could treat any vaccine preventable disease with things like an onion poultice stuck to the side of your head. Not making this up.

I'm quite curious what the anti vaxers make of the fact that something like 98% of doctors have been vaccinated. I guess it's just like the soccer moms, they know better.

and I'll even quote from the profound musings of our own OnTheRivet:

This is the absurdity we've arrived at.

I'm a mechanical engineer. Lifelong Democratic voter until the last election ( did some early volunteer work for the Elizabeth Warren campaign) but ended up voting Libertarian becuase of the insanity I witnessed coming out of the Democratic party. I find it hilarious how the far left like to get ugly and attack just like the far right, those two groups are what make actual good people who want a better future give up on the political process. One of the things I do miss about the old days is if a condescending prick like you tried to talk to me like this face to face I'd just knock him out. Not all Democrats are beta pussies. Oh and I'm vaccinated.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. The entire first paragraph is literally about nothing other the statistical profile of the vaccine hesitant which of course we know you are not as you clearly stated you were vaccinated pages ago and which I acknowledged in a subsequent post. In my paragraph above I write about and mock the currently vaccine hesitant (not you), and the vaccine hesitant of the past (also not you), and you reply with your resume and threats of violence. Just seems a bit odd to me. Now perhaps you are irked at my quote of your comment on absurdity - well that is actually sarcasm or more precisely misappropriation, (though now with my reference to it, it does indeed become condescension ).

And no one is laughing at or mocking your politics. From what I can tell I don't think anyone cares. They're laughing at this kind of thing:

... like forced medical procedures (Hello, Nuremburg code) vaccine passports (Medical apartheid) ...I'm looking forward to the trials and incarceration of all the people responsible for this mess...

In fact I don't think I have even contested your views above, and I am certainly not denying you right to believe any of this. Just don't deny me my right to laugh at it. (OK now I am really being condescending, so now it would be appropriate for you to threaten violence - go for it.)

and they are laughing at this as well:

Not all Democrats are beta pussies.

Thanks for sorting this out - and here I was thinking all Democrats are "beta pussies". Turns out there are some that are not - who knew?

Seriously though, you're proposing that democrats possess distinct physical characteristics? Smaller? Weaker? Beta? Having trouble trying to sort out how political party affiliation impacts physical capabilities. Just fascinating!

Perhaps the problem is my Canadian perspective. Our Conservatives tend to be a bit soft and overweight, while our Liberals are all pretty buff. I'm so confused.

[Mr.Gib]

If we're going to talk about how communism has ruined lives, we may as well also talk about how capitalism has done the same, only in different ways...and continues to do so.

I honestly couldn't bring myself to read most of the posts since I last checked this thread . How did the commies get involved? Not many still around these days. Did Cuba come up? Rhetorical - you don't have to explain.

@TobinHatesYou I always like your posts, but drawing an equivalence between communism and capitalism is not your best work. There was a time when ideological debates between the two could be held but no longer. History has played this out in practical terms for us. To a lot of people communism sounded great, but it turns out they couldn't handle the starvation.

[Andrew69]

2) I don't like QR codes, but not because it's impinging on my personal freedoms. Because I don't always carry a smartphone. Like when I go out riding for example. Not everyone has smartphones. It's discriminatory against people who don't have smartphones. That's all there is to it. There should always be a physical book that you can sign, but that isn't always available. Last time I was told it was "digital only".

This is a little off topic for the rest of the thread, but businesses must have both a scannable QR code and another physical means of sign in if you dont have a phone, or dont have it with you
If they dont have both, they are not complying with the current health orders

[ico]

It is difficult to explain. Even book is not enough. But I can tell you from my personal experience as someone who lived in totalitarian communist part of Europe (now part of EU) how much such a small regulations of personal freedom affects your future behaviours in a time. You would be surprised. You are strongly underestimate it.

To respond to you question:
- Communist completely destroyed the economy - to build the new one and with the "right" people. The former were put in prisons for long term sentences.
- No one need to coordinate anyone. It is the fear that did it for them in the end. Now it is a conformism and opportunism.

It is happening step by step while you still assure yourself it won't go that far. I would call it a partial dehumanisation what we had experienced and the same is happening now. I give you a small absurd example, because it was all completely absurd. What do you think was the reason that communists won't let me as a teenage have a hair cut I wanted, or I cannot have a bag with for example AC/DC written on it? It was a fact that everything was forbiden except what wasn't allowed and recommended - the opposite to democracy - simply controlled. They simply create a threat (behind the borders), therefore borders must be closed and we cannot travel. Not similar? Do you know what they claimed was the reason? A world peace. Yes, you can laugh, yes. (today it is a Covid free world). If you had listened to such a capitalist and imperialsts bands (which of course was only illegally distributed), then you did not support the world peace. You did not support, you can not study, do sport etc.. Do you see the similarities? No? Wait what will happen with Covid sceptics. Commands, commands, commands...There are lot of simmilarities and we often turn our heads in shock, what ideology that is comming you are accepting in countries which once were the symbol of freedom for us.... Believe me it is a very, very sad deja-vu for us.

Fair point, and I have heard others say it too, and certainly scary. But ontherivet is suggesting that there is some sort master plan and a cabal of people pulling the strings. So who is behind it? Where's the evidence? Given that nearly the whole world is affected by covid and every country affected has put out similar mask rules and restrictions (obviously to different degrees) makes the idea that there is some sort of power takeover pretty unrealistic. Is someone trying to rule the whole world with this? Dr Evil?

Your freedom ends where mine begins, you don't get (or shouldn't get) to make decisions for yourself that negatively affect others, especially in life or death. Covid is not a haircut or album art, it is an infectious and potentially lethal virus that you or I can spread to others. So when you decide to go out without a mask or not get vaccinated, etc., you are making decisions for yourself that potentially affect others.
Additionally, here in the US at least, none of the restrictions have actually been all that strict, or even enforced for that matter, we have had an election, and a change of government during this time that has shown a willingness to lift the restrictions (though prematurely apparently), so fail to see this as evidence of a takeover.
And yes, some have been able to exploit or manage to benefit from the situation for money and/or power, but that alone is not proof of a takeover/control conspiracy.

There are other things that were/are going on here that are far more politically concerning to what you speak of than covid restrictions.

The interpretation based on the idea of conspiracy in my opinion denies the essence of what happening today. Proponents of extreme conspiracy theories end up in the same boat with social engineers, who also believe in creating the world according to their will. It is certainly not that somewhere in a super modern submarine station somoene (Bond movie…) organize the destruction of the world as we know it today

Our society is changing by our defeat in small details, underestimation of these details, our lack of attention, loss of critical thinking, corruption of science…., liquidation of social sciences (invasion of new fashion ideologies - gender, eco etc..). I think, that what is happening today is more as a synergy of ideas and strong political and business interests, whose common ambition is the weakening of human freedom and free markets. In the EU you can hardly speak about free markets with so many grants in all segments.

Corona pandemis is strong catalyst of these processes. Otherwise it would be not possible to establish such changes in society. Society always changed after breakthrough events (wars etc.).

What we see today is not a concrete plan for anyone specific in this world. It is not created by those who meet in Bilderberg or Davos (maybe too, but only with their partial interests).

Politicians got a huge advantage to lift the state budget because of the chaos of the pandemic and the abily to pay or “corrupt” voters, science or media. At least in my country, only those who are paid from state budget are out of financial problems during lockdowns, unlike smal and medium businesses.

The progressive left describes our civilization as unfair, racist and masculine and openly call for its significant change and for the establishment of total equality and a radical reduction of any differences between people.

After my experience of communism, I know that attempt of equality goes hand in hand with the destruction of human freedom.


P.S. There are lots of evidence that you spread the virus vaccinated or unvaccinated.

[Andrew69]

It is difficult to explain. Even book is not enough. But I can tell you from my personal experience as someone who lived in totalitarian communist part of Europe (now part of EU) how much such a small regulations of personal freedom affects your future behaviours in a time. You would be surprised. You are strongly underestimate it.

To respond to you question:
- Communist completely destroyed the economy - to build the new one and with the "right" people. The former were put in prisons for long term sentences.
- No one need to coordinate anyone. It is the fear that did it for them in the end. Now it is a conformism and opportunism.

It is happening step by step while you still assure yourself it won't go that far. I would call it a partial dehumanisation what we had experienced and the same is happening now. I give you a small absurd example, because it was all completely absurd. What do you think was the reason that communists won't let me as a teenage have a hair cut I wanted, or I cannot have a bag with for example AC/DC written on it? It was a fact that everything was forbiden except what wasn't allowed and recommended - the opposite to democracy - simply controlled. They simply create a threat (behind the borders), therefore borders must be closed and we cannot travel. Not similar? Do you know what they claimed was the reason? A world peace. Yes, you can laugh, yes. (today it is a Covid free world). If you had listened to such a capitalist and imperialsts bands (which of course was only illegally distributed), then you did not support the world peace. You did not support, you can not study, do sport etc.. Do you see the similarities? No? Wait what will happen with Covid sceptics. Commands, commands, commands...There are lot of simmilarities and we often turn our heads in shock, what ideology that is comming you are accepting in countries which once were the symbol of freedom for us.... Believe me it is a very, very sad deja-vu for us.

That is an extremely long bow to draw my friend.
I understand your premise, and I have no doubt that there are some people in the world that are actively seeking to use the pandemic to further their agenda, but I would say that the vast majority of people (and leaders) are only trying to safe guard their citizens from the pandemic

[MoPho]

The interpretation based on the idea of conspiracy in my opinion denies the essence of what happening today. Proponents of extreme conspiracy theories end up in the same boat with social engineers, who also believe in creating the world according to their will. It is certainly not that somewhere in a super modern submarine station somoene (Bond movie…) organize the destruction of the world as we know it today

Our society is changing by our defeat in small details, underestimation of these details, our lack of attention, loss of critical thinking, corruption of science…., liquidation of social sciences (invasion of new fashion ideologies - gender, eco etc..). I think, that what is happening today is more as a synergy of ideas and strong political and business interests, whose common ambition is the weakening of human freedom and free markets. In the EU you can hardly speak about free markets with so many grants in all segments.

Corona pandemis is strong catalyst of these processes. Otherwise it would be not possible to establish such changes in society. Society always changed after breakthrough events (wars etc.).

What we see today is not a concrete plan for anyone specific in this world. It is not created by those who meet in Bilderberg or Davos (maybe too, but only with their partial interests).

Politicians got a huge advantage to lift the state budget because of the chaos of the pandemic and the abily to pay or “corrupt” voters, science or media. At least in my country, only those who are paid from state budget are out of financial problems during lockdowns, unlike smal and medium businesses.

The progressive left describes our civilization as unfair, racist and masculine and openly call for its significant change and for the establishment of total equality and a radical reduction of any differences between people.

After my experience of communism, I know that attempt of equality goes hand in hand with the destruction of human freedom.


P.S. There are lots of evidence that you spread the virus vaccinated or unvaccinated.

You are veering a bit too far in the weeds, my comments/questions were directed at ontherivet who was trying to claim that the masks, lockdowns, and other efforts to curb the pandemic were direct attempts to control us for power and money and that his evidence of this was that he doesn't know anyone who got covid and he peeked in an ER and it was empty (probably because covid patients are in the ICU or covid ward not the ER)
Now I hear what you're saying, in fact the previous 4 years watching our wannabe authoritarian president brainwash a large part of our population and overturn an election was pretty F'n scary, but as Andrew69 points out, I don't see how the covid response is anything other than governments trying to safeguard people as best they can, even if they are flailing around at it.

Politicians got a huge advantage to lift the state budget because of the chaos of the pandemic and the abily to pay or “corrupt” voters, science or media. At least in my country, only those who are paid from state budget are out of financial problems during lockdowns, unlike smal and medium businesses.

Well in this country, the local and state goverments took big financial hits from the decrease in tax revenue and are struggling, hence why I asked how the government is benefitting. I know some local government people who lost their jobs or came close to it.

After my experience of communism, I know that attempt of equality goes hand in hand with the destruction of human freedom.

But is it the equality or the authoritarian regime/malevolent dictator that is behind the destruction of human freedom?

[spud]

The irony of the situation is that FL and Texas are encouraging people to get back to the bars & restaurants completely uninhibited. And Fl is actively trying to prevent hospitality businesses from employing risk reduction practices. In other words, actively working against the interests of business. Now that sounds a lot like communism.