2020 Pro thread

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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kbbpll
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by kbbpll

“concerned only a very limited number of riders, as well as their close entourage, not employed by the team" - so, these riders get to have their own entourage doctors "not employed by the team"? I'm so sick of this stuff I could puke. If you can't compete, then don't compete.

by Weenie


maquisard
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by maquisard

sychen wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:10 am
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french ... de-france/

Both arrested/detained linked to the "main" rider... Not looking good.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
It is a joke. The main evidence is a small amount of saline and an IV kit. This has 1000 and 1 legitimate medical usages.

The Gendarmerie will drop all charges shortly

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:02 pm

The calculated value of Contador's VO2 max on the Verbier ascent is c. 98. Values can differ a bit because even small inaccuracies in calculation can skew this. But a value that high is considered to be very nearly impossible for an unmodified human. Pogacar's calculated value could come out even higher - close to or above 100. Am looking forward to the science of sports podcast on this.

Calculated VO2max will always be somewhat questionable. It’s possible Pogacar has very high O2 efficiency / torque efficiency or what not. Also we don’t know the conditions on the day like winds and what not. Richie’s VAM was quite something too.

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kbbpll
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by kbbpll

maquisard wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:23 am
sychen wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:10 am
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french ... de-france/

Both arrested/detained linked to the "main" rider... Not looking good.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
It is a joke. The main evidence is a small amount of saline and an IV kit. This has 1000 and 1 legitimate medical usages.

The Gendarmerie will drop all charges shortly
In a hotel room with a doctor "not employed by the team"? Could they at least try not to look fishy? This is a professional team, right? My god. So fed up with this stuff.

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

I have this t-shirt I bought in Saint-Malo.
It says “Breizh is a joke” on it.

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robbosmans
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by robbosmans

I believe in the advancements in training, bikes and nutrition. He could have a really high vo2 max like Remco (87) and Bernal (around 90).

I feel like you cant judge a kid on one effort, riders always say that they sometimes exceed their own numbers on special races like world’s.

Next year will hopefully (not looking good) be a normal season, where everyone can train like normal.

RTW
in the industry
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by RTW

smartyiak wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:22 pm
I’m sorry you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles.
What are you saying? :lol:

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tymon_tm
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by tymon_tm

robbosmans wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:24 am
I believe in the advancements in training, bikes and nutrition. He could have a really high vo2 max like Remco (87) and Bernal (around 90).

I feel like you cant judge a kid on one effort, riders always say that they sometimes exceed their own numbers on special races like world’s.

Next year will hopefully (not looking good) be a normal season, where everyone can train like normal.
I also do believe in those. and I believe that - generally speaking - the level of the field is going up inch by inch. first of all, training and nutrition aren't some mystery anymore, kids who start their adventure with semi-pro sport often have access to similar stuff pros do or use - it's often "only" jusrt a question of money. same with equipment. I once spoke with Dariusz Baranowski, co-commentator of polish eurosport, former pro with USPS and Banesto (came 12th overall at Tour and Giro) about how the training conditions kids at Kwiato's accademy have, are far, far better that what he had at... USPS.. it's night and day regarding technical knowledge, bikes, facilities, means.. so yeah, if there wasn't any progress, it would mean all this stuff is for nothing.. I strongly believe even those aero wheels or frames do make for a tiny difference..

BUT, having said that, there's still only so much power human body can produce and sustain. no one is able to fully rest and regenerate day-in, day-out during a three week race, it's just not freakin' possible. yet, from time to time we are *to believe in miracles*. which they are, but most likely medically induced. I'd rather call them "acts", and yup, entertaining they are. again - nothing wrong with that extra little bit of juice too, as long as you don't kid yourself about *clean sport*. it's just a question of proportions. hell, Pog's put a stunning show. just like Froomie did in '18. or Landis in '06 was it? there were more - Bertie's, Fab's.. Remco's at TdP.. in my opinion, the only difference between them is: some manage to somehow get away with whatever it is they do, some don't. some are world class a-holes and make tons of enemies in the process, some just keep to themselves. some are open, vocal about stuff, some keep it low-pro. but regarding means to an end, they all ride on the same, one wagon.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

Cycomanic
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by Cycomanic

robbosmans wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:24 am
I believe in the advancements in training, bikes and nutrition. ...
pharmaceuticals? SICR

peted76
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by peted76

Well I think this tour will have reset the betting odds for the World Champs at the weekend.. Hirschi, WvA, Kamna, Sepp Kuss...Hell, maybe even Pog could be up there if he recovers as well as people say.. who do we fancy to be wearing the rainbow stripes?

I don't see MdP on the start list :(

Julian Alaphilippe must be a hot favourite.. but I don't reckon he'll be up there after 18 efforts and 258km's.. (I could be eating those words)

Outside chance, Tom Pidcock who is in some flying form.

My top three.. 1) WvA 2) Hirschi 3) Pidcock (maybe not in that order)

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tymon_tm
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by tymon_tm

it's gonna take someone who can punch-climb and then TT and/or sprint (like that's discovering america :wink: ). Alaphillipe hasn't got that kick this year, so sadly nope. GVA will do the pulling though, I'm sure of it :lol: maybe Kwiato can put up a fight, thanks to Bernal's meltdown he didn't do any of that extreme job on front, might be in really great shape. WVA is an obvious pick if the fatigue doesn't kick in. Pog and Rog would be the usual suspects, but it's 260k after three weeks of racing - so not this year I'm affraid.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

jever98
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Location: Seattle

by jever98

tymon_tm wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:06 am
BUT, having said that, there's still only so much power human body can produce and sustain. no one is able to fully rest and regenerate day-in, day-out during a three week race, it's just not freakin' possible. yet, from time to time we are *to believe in miracles*. which they are, but most likely medically induced. I'd rather call them "acts", and yup, entertaining they are. again - nothing wrong with that extra little bit of juice too, as long as you don't kid yourself about *clean sport*. it's just a question of proportions. hell, Pog's put a stunning show. just like Froomie did in '18. or Landis in '06 was it? there were more - Bertie's, Fab's.. Remco's at TdP.. in my opinion, the only difference between them is: some manage to somehow get away with whatever it is they do, some don't. some are world class a-holes and make tons of enemies in the process, some just keep to themselves. some are open, vocal about stuff, some keep it low-pro. but regarding means to an end, they all ride on the same, one wagon.
Sorry, but what you say is deeply inhuman: basically, you're suggesting it's ok for people to dope, as long as the show is good. You completely disregard that many people have died because of doping. Just remember Pantani, Vandenbroucke, or the Rumsas story.

The athletes are often young people and are guided by or even pressured by their coaches, management, and don't yet have a full view of all the consequences.

It might always be an uphill battle, but the "get over it, everyone does it, that makes it ok" line of argument is disgusting.
----
No longer in the industry

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robbosmans
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by robbosmans

peted76 wrote:Well I think this tour will have reset the betting odds for the World Champs at the weekend.. Hirschi, WvA, Kamna, Sepp Kuss...Hell, maybe even Pog could be up there if he recovers as well as people say.. who do we fancy to be wearing the rainbow stripes?

I don't see MdP on the start list :(

Julian Alaphilippe must be a hot favourite.. but I don't reckon he'll be up there after 18 efforts and 258km's.. (I could be eating those words)

Outside chance, Tom Pidcock who is in some flying form.

My top three.. 1) WvA 2) Hirschi 3) Pidcock (maybe not in that order)
Alaphilippe was training according to his team, he felt he did not have the legs yet so he went to attack. We will see if it pays off.

WvA is the clear favorite if he can survive the 5000m of elevation he will win.

Pidcock will probably go unnoticed for awhile but will be there when the racing really starts

Is there a profile yet of the course?

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tymon_tm
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:35 pm

by tymon_tm

jever98 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:51 am
tymon_tm wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:06 am
BUT, having said that, there's still only so much power human body can produce and sustain. no one is able to fully rest and regenerate day-in, day-out during a three week race, it's just not freakin' possible. yet, from time to time we are *to believe in miracles*. which they are, but most likely medically induced. I'd rather call them "acts", and yup, entertaining they are. again - nothing wrong with that extra little bit of juice too, as long as you don't kid yourself about *clean sport*. it's just a question of proportions. hell, Pog's put a stunning show. just like Froomie did in '18. or Landis in '06 was it? there were more - Bertie's, Fab's.. Remco's at TdP.. in my opinion, the only difference between them is: some manage to somehow get away with whatever it is they do, some don't. some are world class a-holes and make tons of enemies in the process, some just keep to themselves. some are open, vocal about stuff, some keep it low-pro. but regarding means to an end, they all ride on the same, one wagon.
Sorry, but what you say is deeply inhuman: basically, you're suggesting it's ok for people to dope, as long as the show is good. You completely disregard that many people have died because of doping. Just remember Pantani, Vandenbroucke, or the Rumsas story.

The athletes are often young people and are guided by or even pressured by their coaches, management, and don't yet have a full view of all the consequences.

It might always be an uphill battle, but the "get over it, everyone does it, that makes it ok" line of argument is disgusting.
no - I say it's just happening, whether we like it or not. I'd love people to stop cheating, stealing and doping, but that's never going to happen, such is life. embrace it and learn to enjoy pro cycling despite it, or rip you hair off everytime someone turns his pedals harder than everyone else - that's the choice we have.

as for "accepting is disguisting" - we've been here many times before, even on this board. Lance, Landis, Puerto, Beeferto, Skyerto... it's same old story all over again: an athlete gets punished, while the system doesn't even glitch. I'm all for fighting doping, not pursuing dopers and pretending it makes sport cleaner. it doesn't. it only makes athletes disposable.
Last edited by tymon_tm on Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

by Weenie


aeroisnteverything
Posts: 442
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:43 pm

by aeroisnteverything

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:29 am
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:02 pm

The calculated value of Contador's VO2 max on the Verbier ascent is c. 98. Values can differ a bit because even small inaccuracies in calculation can skew this. But a value that high is considered to be very nearly impossible for an unmodified human. Pogacar's calculated value could come out even higher - close to or above 100. Am looking forward to the science of sports podcast on this.

Calculated VO2max will always be somewhat questionable. It’s possible Pogacar has very high O2 efficiency / torque efficiency or what not. Also we don’t know the conditions on the day like winds and what not. Richie’s VAM was quite something too.
Agree, but at some point you run out of room for error. Cycling efficiency has also been found to have a negative correlation with VO2 max, so if his VO2 max is thru the roof (95-97 range, for example) you would not expect a super high CE value to accompany that, and vice versa.

And the trends in this Tour are troubling. We've had a few years where the pace has slowed a fair bit from the doping years, and now it's back up again. First you had POG's performance on the Peyresourde. Then we had a whole bunch of ppl ascend the Colombier at the highest ever pace, Jumbo driving the train, but a fairly large group of cyclists (over a dozen) stuck together for most of the climb, with separation only at the end - Pogacar winning of course. He also hung on quite well on the Loz - and although the Superman clearly had outdone everyone that day, MAL had nothing in the tank for the time trial, while POG recovered. And then this time trial. As you say, even Porte's VAM was quite something and really in the territory where it should have been good enough to win. But it wasn't.

Any one of those things in isolation, you can easily shrug off. But it's building up to somewhat of a trend, and it's not a good one, given what we know about the history of the records being broken.

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