Which bike brands are owned by corporations that love money more than bikes?

[Lewn777]

I was watching this excellent Hambini video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWDztuezn0g where he throws Cervelo under the bus.
I was thinking does anyone know the inside scoop on bike brand's ownership. Some once great brands are now owned by bean counters that have their bikes made in Asia for cheap and low quality, yet charge people a small fortune. Cervelo? Cannondale? Fuji?

Also which brands really care about the quality of their bikes, the riders and their workers? Look? Time? Orbea?

Obviously these will be opinions, so maybe say your opinion without attacking anyone else's. Your reasoning will win the argument not shouting anyone else down.

[Kayrehn]

Great link, thanks for the share. Am sharing the most important slide in the video for everyone here to pay it forward

I have to say
- Fuji definitely do not charge a small fortune! I bought my Fuji SL at full retail when it just came out for the equivalent of 2.1k usd.
- I think it's ok if the brands ensure QC is done proper even if the factory is overseas, and if they actively take steps to remedy issues.
- I don't know much about bike manufacturing, but how can the production of the bike go so wrong with a mould?
- if they ignore or deny issues then they ought to be shamed by people like Hambini

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[kgt]

Usually the more marketing you see the less quality you should expect. lol
Some general rules IME:
- Smaller manufacturers that keep their production in house (in their country or in their own factories abroad) have a better quality than big manufacturers which outsource their production to someone, somewhere nobody knows who.
- Handmade in Europe or in the US is better than mass made in China or Taiwan. There are exceptions, of course. Hi end Giant frames are very very well made, way better than any hi end fame from Specialized, Cervelo, Cannondale, Trek etc. They are made in house, that's why.

[Lelandjt]

I don't know anything about Cervelo or their parent company but that same company has owned Santa Cruz for a few years now and their manufacturing, designs, and general company vibe haven't changed for the worse. For you non-MTBers they have one of the better reputations in the industry. For example, they own their Chinese factory and are known for great QC and very durable frames (though a bit heavy and expensive).

[kgt]

It is hilarious that most aeroweenies have no idea how many watts their aero 'superbikes' loose from shitty manufacturing like the one in the video. And they don't even care to know. They just trust the manufacturer's white paper.
lol

[Shrike]

I realised something was wrong about Damon Rinard from the Cannondale threads. He is all over them when he can hype the brand, and will respond quite quickly with information that will help sell the bikes. But as soon as you mention something wrong (in my case I brought up Cannondale's absurd advice that was being given to women about the sizes in the UK, ie. Topstones that were too stretched out were being pushed to women), Damon wouldn't respond. Just fell completely silent.

That's his way of dealing with issues. Just ignores them.

I'd like to see Cervelo respond to the Hambini video. We all have brands we sort of stick to for whatever reason. I always stuck to Cervelo but part of the appeal is that they're some aero/engineering innovator. Peak aero is real and Cervelo's aero innovation doesn't count for anything now. I can buy an open mold frame from China that will be within a few watts of an S5 I believe.

So that leaves the engineering and manufacturing quality - if Cervelo's not up to scratch there then I'm not sure what the brand is worth

[backdoor]

I've always been drawn to the "smaller" bike production companies that are driven to make a better bike.

The hard part about this is that when these companies start to make the better bike and get noticed and successful someone bigger comes along and swallows them up.

Let's start with Klein Bicycles in Western WA. They were making bicycles ahead of their time in their peak. Then Trek came along, bought the company and closed them down.

Jim Felt had a really great approach to bike designs and such a drive to make good bikes that when "Answer" wanted to focus more on $$ Jim Felt dropped then like a bad habit and relaunched Felt in 2001. Felt bikes were on the rise, had some interesting geometry that fit certain types of riders well and a Felt bike was exciting and fun to ride. In 2017 Jim sold to Rossignol and now they are again more focused on profit margins.

Blue Competition started in Norcross, GA in early 2000 by a group of guys who knew they could design a better bike for less money and still be profitable. They made some amazing bikes and introduced technology that's used across all manufacturers today. They ended up with some financial trouble and are now owned by the Tawaineese company that produced their frames.

Diamondback was a great little BMX focused company when it started in the early 80's. Grew into bike distributions and as recently as this past year has been bought out by Accel Group.

Ridley - Currently one of my faves is on the rise and is still "Bike Focused". Now that they own Merckx it will be interesting to see if they continue to stay bike focused or if corporate starts eyeballing their numbers and they get approached by investment companies looking to make a buck.

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[TheRich]

A few years ago, Cervelo wanted to do a big demo as part of Interbike, a demo that required a permit to use the area in question.

Their subcontractor contacted the land manager and the land manager informed him of the need for a permit and who to contact (commercial permit holder) in order to legally do the demo without having to pay for their own permit, which would have been very expensive.

Well, the subcontractor did contact a permit holder to use their permit...except he never completed the deal and did the demo anyway...on two successive days. I called law enforcement and witnessed him getting what I was told was "a very big" fine.

I personally spoke to Cervelo's brand manager at their booth at Interbike and they basically couldn't give two f's about it. No apologies, no condemnation of the subcontractor, just "what would you like us to do about it?" You tell me how your company deals with this sort of thing...or did you just tell me?

Never, ever, give Cervelo business, they don't deserve your patronage.
(Unsurprisingly, the subcontractor seems to have gone out of business)

[Imaking20]

Usually the more marketing you see the less quality you should expect. lol
Some general rules IME:
- Smaller manufacturers that keep their production in house (in their country or in their own factories abroad) have a better quality than big manufacturers which outsource their production to someone, somewhere nobody knows who.
- Handmade in Europe or in the US is better than mass made in China or Taiwan. There are exceptions, of course. Hi end Giant frames are very very well made, way better than any hi end fame from Specialized, Cervelo, Cannondale, Trek etc. They are made in house, that's why.

These theories make sense on paper but the bike I've owned would not lead me to make such statements. The ones that stand out the most would be:
- Masking tape still around the paint on my C59
- HAVING TO DREMEL A FD TAB ON A C60 in order for the FD to have enough room to go into the big ring
- Endless BB noise on a "superior" BB design on same C60
- Paint cracking at the lugs on that same C60 (happened to the owner after me)
- Misaligned FD tab on a very expensive, handmade in the USA titanium frame
- Bottle cage bolts too close together on said titanium frame (bottles would hit each other)

Contrast this with the Specialissima and my new Tarmac, both of which are made overseas and both of which had fantastic finishing details with no BS to speak of.

For sure, not all major manufacturers are created equal - but artisan/boutique frames, for me, are akin to old houses with "charm." Where "charm" actually = "you're going to have a lot of BS and noises to constantly deal with - but at least you'll have great curb appeal!"

Also, Hambini for president

[Imaking20]

Oh, and then there is Factor. Small brand who owns their own factory. Their finish quality is about on par with Cannondale - yet they're priced like Colnago. Beautiful riding frame, just don't look too close.

[AJS914]

All of these companies are profit driven companies. I expect all of them to do what is good for their bottom line.

I once read an article/essay by Gary Klein. (I'm sure it's still out there somewhere but I can't find it.) His experience with Trek wasn't that great though I guess he ultimately profited nicely. The bottom line for Trek at the time was they weren't interested in his patents or innovative ideas. Trek's whole goal was having a frame to hang groupsets on. It was basically a groupset business.

[kgt]

@ backdoor
You are right. When the big guys buy a small company they usually ruin it. I am afraid this will be the case with TIME. They still make exceptional work but I doubt they will keep going for many years judging by Rossignol's priorities.

@Imaking20
Sure, small manufacturers can be bad too - see Filament's case here:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=146699&hilit=hambini+bb+issue
However, in general, small manufacturers who produce in house (because there are small manufacturers who subcontract their productions) have a much better quality than mass made in Asia subcontracted stuff. A Colnago C60 or C64 is waayyyy better made than any Specialized or Cannondale or Cervelo. You had a mishap with your C60 but this is a rare incident for a top Colnago whereas shitty manufacturing is the standard for the other companies.

Hambini mentions two manufacturers who are much better in that sense: Look and Time. It is no coincidence that both companies make everything in their own factories, in France, Slovakia, Tunisia or elsewhere. Late Look frames are made in China though, I am not sure that a subcontractor is not involved there.

[Imaking20]

@Imaking20
Sure, small manufacturers can be bad too - see Filament's case here:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=146699&hilit=hambini+bb+issue
However, in general, small manufacturers who produce in house (because there are small manufacturers who subcontract their productions) have a much better quality than mass made in Asia subcontracted stuff.
A Colnago C60 or C64 is waayyyy better made than any Specialized or Cannondale or Cervelo. You had a mishap with your C60 but this is a rare incident for a top Colnago whereas shitty manufacturing is the standard for the other companies.

Yeah, you can't really say this to me when 2 of my 3 Colnagos had QC issues and none of my 5 Specialized have. How many Specialized or Cannondale have you owned in the last 5 years?

There are brands people love to knock - and there are brands people love to put on a pedestal. My run of bikes have shown me that these public statuses aren't so much tied to the actually quality or performance of the product as much as they're tied to an ideal or a nostalgia.

Similarly, I've realized that some products that are ubiquitous - are so for a reason. Such as the SuperSix Evo and current gen Tarmac. Some folks will live and die by hating on those bikes (likely with no firsthand experience of either) and that's all fine and well. Personally, I'd rather have my own firsthand experience and form an opinion that way - rather than follow common consensus on a forum (which also varies by forum).
A C60 is a beautiful riding bike - but it's an artisan product. How many artisan products have you found that are perfect? Ya know what CAN make perfect products? Machines that are programmed to very exact tolerances!

Technology is a beautiful thing - it means products evolve. I spent the last couple years searching for a bike that disproves this and finally came up empty handed. Turns out that companies who invest major capital into R&D and production are usually able to make a better product as a result of that investment.

[kgt]

That is my experience and opinion. You do not have to agree of course.
There are many people like you who believe that "companies who invest major capital into R&D and production are usually able to make a better product as a result of that investment."
Hambini in this video -and elsewhere- argues that big companies who outsource their production have usually crappy manufacturing. My experience and understanding as an engineer agrees to hambini's.

[Imaking20]

So.. no firsthand experience with Cannondale or Specialized then?

At least Hambini rides a Cervelo - so he's absolutely qualified to trash them. Ha.

Your argument is not a revelation - more just a numbers game. Higher volume production means higher potential number of samples with an issue. Hambini shows that some brands are better off avoided. At the same time, I'd rather choose a bike based on performance traits I'm after FIRST and consideration of potentially QC issues second. As Hambini has obviously done and as I'd do again with Colnago.