Which bike brands are owned by corporations that love money more than bikes?

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

RTW wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:24 am
So really, that isn't 'anything' out of the ordinary, right?

I have no frame that has reached 100,000km - unlikely to happen. I would be so bored of the bike by then.
40,000 km fork / bars - also unlikely to happen on anything carbon because..... it is rare I keep a frame and forks beyond 10,000km (see above) - the bars might be older, but they will have been stripped and inspected when the build was done.

Winter bike for wet weather, and Wattbike for the indoor.
Yep, 10,000kms is for the average rider. But when you get up to 20-30,000 a year, that's when things get interesting. A good thing to do is to tell new riders to keep their entry level alloy bikes as winter/training bikes - don't sell when you get a carbon bike, then mostly all good.

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wingguy
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by wingguy

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IvanZg
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by IvanZg

7:35

Voids detected on Canyon Aeroad fork that went trought their CT machine....


https://youtu.be/muukpjzb5Jw

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

Looks like nobody can get it right.

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kgt
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by kgt

IvanZg wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:11 am
7:35
Voids detected on Canyon Aeroad fork that went trought their CT machine....
https://youtu.be/muukpjzb5Jw
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Wow! Such big companies, so very little attention to safety.
All those who believe that big companies have better QC (because they are big) should watch the video. Maybe the contrary is true...
Regarding Canyon, either they x-ray just a small portion of frames or they do not pay as much attention as we think they do.

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Last edited by kgt on Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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kgt
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by kgt

Lewn777 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:01 am
Looks like nobody can get it right.
A few months ago Raoul Luescher found a Time fork that was 100% defect free.

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Leviathan
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

All the defective forks Luescher cut open were involved in crashes. That’s why he has them in the first place. So yeah, there might be some imperfections, but they weren’t going to self-destruct without some kind of rider or maintenance error.

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kgt
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by kgt

Maybe you have not seen the video but RL sais pretty much the opposite: poorly manufactured forks can potentially be very dangerous since they (their steerers) can break without any notice. This has nothing to do with lack or maintance. It is just bad QC and low quality manufacturing.
Badly designed headset compressors and/or headset bearings can add to this potential danger as well.

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

kgt wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:45 am
Maybe you have not seen the video but RL sais pretty much the opposite: poorly manufactured forks can potentially be very dangerous since they (their steerers) can break without any notice. This has nothing to do with lack or maintance. It is just bad QC and low quality manufacturing.
Badly designed headset compressors and/or headset bearings can add to this potential danger as well.
From what RL shows that means 99.9 (expect for the one Time) fork have voids and other issues... they would be ashploding at a much greater number then we are seeing if that was the case.... sorry its not happening.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

"stem overtightened"
"stem overtightened"
"crushed from overtightening"
"voids...got through their x-ray system" An example of why simply having an x-ray process doesn't mean much.

I think Luescher's own description of these voids is accurate. "Less than ideal." None of those voids were failure points. One of the voids was in section of the steerer around 1cm thick. Less than ideal, but probably not critical because these parts are overbuilt. Could they be better about it? Yes of course. If they could ensure perfect compaction and resin coverage, then they could make much lighter frames rather than bolstering those high stress / high liability areas.

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kgt
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by kgt

I agree, the chances of a fork breaking just because of these voids are very low. Such a chance still exists though as we all recently saw even in a bike perfectly tuned by pro mechanics.
The thing is that proper manufacturing can make for a perfect, void free steerer and a perfect headset system that will not harm the fork's carbon steerer.
My question is, why should one accept that "less than ideal" is ok in the case of a 4000 frame? Shouldn't it be ideal?
But, of course, a frame which saves 2 watts and has a cool paintjob is always better; even when its fork collapses in front of you. Marketing always wins.

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Alexbn921
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by Alexbn921

The fork on my 2007 specialized roubaix started to delaminate at the top with 30mm of factory spacers under the stem. I found it and was able to cut off the bad part. Had to slam my stem afterwards and the fork never had any other problems from it. Also the carbon top cap was bonded at an angle that would eat bearings. Local shop gave be a used cap that was straight and some bearings.
Ride fast Take chances

ichobi
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by ichobi

Working in the indsutry for almost a decade, I have also seen too many irresponsible small boutique, supposedly quality brands that are loved by the world over (on Instagram and media at least) fail to deliver order on time, shoddy paintwork, and with poor structural construction. Speedvagen failed to warranty my friend's poor paintwork on time. It took him 7 months and zillion of emails to get what he is owed when buying such thing at such price he should be treated with utmost respect and shouldn't really take more than 5 emails.

That poor paintwork is not supposed to happen in the first place given the price he paid. Festka had a lot of issue with delivery date and part replacement. Cipollini is notorious for unable to produce a symmetrical integrated seatpost meaning it is impossible to have your seatpost straight because the seat slot is not properly aligned from the factory. I had one that have this very issue, and my friend that is a bike fitter and mechanic has built almost a hundred Cippollini frame and a lot of them also have this same issue.

I am not quite sure I buy into these domestic made brands or owning the factory having superior quality. It's as much a make belief as saying big brands are all marketing. If you cherry pick fail products like shown in Hambini and LT video, can you say with confidence that all of them are poorly made? In Hambini case, it's a Cervelo sample of ONE. Yes their 'increasing the bb tolerant' is ridiculous looking at the big picture, In any production batch there will be product that are not made to 100% perfection be it mass produced or artisanally made, particularly carbon production where the majority of the process is made by hand.

I am not defending the big brands, but a lot of blanket statements are thrown out here without statisically significance failure rate like you may want to believe. I am all for building safer product and being accountable for your work, but some of this fearmongering here is just too much to believe. If that were the case we would have seen a lot more accidents already, especially in the world tour races where you are on LIVE tv. There's no hiding there.

Also, there are a number of domestic brands that work really hard with Chinese factory and their in house designer to produce good frame and wheels. They might not have R&D of Specialized and Trek, but not all Asian factories are incompentent. My good friend sell domestic bicycle in Thailand, and he carefully select the partner factory, make sure that they build reputable and quality stuff even though they dont have the resource to be the technology leader in the sector, they are still able to make quality carbon bicycle that is competent and affordable price point. This factory makes Lapiere and handlebar for Canyon. They also builds Diamondback Andean frame. I completely trust the bike this very brand my friend is selling because I have visited the factory and see how the operations are run. Their QC is top notch. They might not have X-ray machine to scan every single forks (which apparently still fails), but I am completely at ease to ride their bike. No the frame is not the lightest and most aero in the world, but it's well build and safe and allow more people to participate the sport, supporting also local business. His brand now sponsors a full domestic pro team, enabling opportunities for many young kids to have a respectable job as professional athethes. Not every big brands are marketing sham out to milk money from you and not all small brands use shoddy chinese factory. There are people with real passion that live for and die by the sport. It's sad to see blanket statement thrown aroud.

Not everone has the cash to buy the best Specialized or Colnago C-Series after all. Some of these domestic brands run good and honest business where warranty policy is top notch and go above and beyond many big brands to gain customer trust. Of course there are the bad ones that just want to sell cheap and poorly made stuff. Some of these brands tried to send a no name chinese handlebar for me to review that broke on my first ride. I almost friggin sue the guy to oblivion. Luckily I wasn't hurt.

I live in Thailand where road cycling is a fashion and many people shell out big bucks for boutique bikes. If you want to see how poor some of these 'well respected' domestically made brands are, I will take you to see these cases one by one any time. Same with large 'reputable' brands. I know almost every single bike importer companies in Thailand and have worked with them. Many horror stories but also many prompt warranty case too. Don't just believe two or three guys on youtube. Not disrespecting Hambini or LT because i like their work as much as many of you here, but try to go out there and see for yourself. Really investigate and you might be surprised the things you see in this industry.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@ichobi: Well balanced post :thumbup:

Well I've managed to avoid getting involved in this thread until now, when I thought ichobi's post deserved a thumbs up. But now that I'm here, I'll weigh in a bit... First, quality control and statistical relevance go hand in hand in mass production of anything. That's a given. No manufacturer is going to test every single component that gets spit out of the manufacturing process for every possible thing that could be wrong. So at some point we need to rely on the company having adequate design, manufacturing and QC processes in place that ensures a quality product reaches the consumer. Will they all be perfect, probably not. But it is at least somewhat reassuring that a lot of tests are generally in place to help ensure the safety in design. Have you ever seen the stuff that some companies subject their frames and forks to during testing... some companies test to far greater standards than is required by governing standards, others to the bare minimum. And then there are the boutique one offs... where if you asked if this particular design has been tested to destruction etc., and how many times... you will likely get an answer of "it's a one of a kind, made just for you, lighter than anything we've built before... blah, blah..." Ok, then... I think I'd be much more inclinded to go with a manufacturer where I know some testing to destruction has occurred before throwing my leg over it.

Speaking of "in house" quality, and "Made in insert any country other than China here", well that's bollocks too. I would think that when it comes to producing stuff made out of carbon fiber, some of the most sophisticated and best processes in the world are now found in Asia... and unforuntately, perhaps some of the worst as well.
But let's have a quick look at some "samples" of TIME (which seems to have been given godlike status by a person or two for reasons unknown to me) that I've had the pleasure of working with personally.

First, there was this TIME VXR Ulteam, brought to me for numerous things, the main one being the clunking of the headset which comes loose after a while when the proprietary lower bearing wears in as a result of the soft polymer (wax) that compresses...
I was kind of surprised to see the inside of this headtube... I don't know... "not ideal" comes to mind, but it still seems to be working, so who am I to say if it's not structurally sound, it hasn't broken....
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Ok... lets have closer look.... "not ideal? flesh wound perhaps?"... you decide....
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Then there's the corrosion in the lug joints developing....
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And the bolts they use for their stems and bolted on front derailleur hangers corrode easily, so much so that I've had to resort to pretty extreme measures to get them out...
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Granted, the example above is only a sample of one, but since that seems to be an appropriate sample size for some people to come to some pretty extreme conclusions in this thread, well... I guess this sample counts too.

But moving on to a more recent sample of a Time Skylon I had the displeasure of building up, while the quality of the carbon and it's construction seemed just fine, there were enough other elements that really had me hating this frame by the end, and that's before I even rode it...
For instance... the front derailleur hangers design is such that it has to be removed and reinstalled in one of two positions, depending on whether you're using a compact crank or a standard crank. That's kind of ridiculous when it seems that every other manufacturer can design a hanger that fits most derailleurs for all the common configruations of chain rings. And I really loathe having to torque those bolts to 7Nm to rivnuts bonded in the frame, such potential for things to go very wrong here. But then to have that same mount require me to take it to the grinder to grind off a chunk of metal which completely interfered with proper installation of any derailleur was unacceptable. That hanger had to have been bolted on to the frame by a person, and to not have seen that piece of metal sticking out a that time was a big fail in the QC...
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Rather than send the frame back for warranty, I fixed it myself, by removing the hanger, grinding it down, then priming and repainting it before resinstalling. I wasn't going to deal with TIME warranty after it took several months for them to send a 'revised" seat clamp which didn't clamp. And after all that time, they merely sent back the same clamp which had some sand glued to it to help hold better.

I'll leave it at that, but there were other design issues that frustrated the hell out of me with this frame. Probably a moot point going foward since TIME seems to be just hanging on by a thread these days anyway.

Then moving from TIME to LOOK for a second, and since there are those that put 100% faith in whatever comes out of certain youtubers mouths... how about that video that LT did when he cut the Look frame in half. Voids and delaminations all over the place.

Also keep in mind, that these guys probably are not getting perfectly good new frames to disect. They are probably broken on arrival. It's not likely anyone is going to get a brand new frame and say... "here ya go... I want this frame all cut up so I can be sure there's absolutely no voids anywhere".

So, to reiterate, @ichobi's points rang very true to me. No brand is going to have 100% perfection. It's the bike industry after all.
Last edited by Calnago on Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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