Home grown chain lube.....no, not the religious way ;-)

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

Moderator: Moderator Team

zefs
Posts: 361
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

I had also measured it with a ruler, I think it was just over 12" but anyhow. I might try chain wax at some point as it seems an intresting concept so thanks for the information.

MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

As wear measuring seems to be a topic here as well, no, the precision of a stamped metal ruler is not adequate.
What you can do though, is to use a simple el-cheapo digital caliper.
If you don't feel like calculating, loads of different companies sell this one:

https://www.kmcchain.com/en/teach/digital-chain-checker

They suggest 0.8mm as the wear limit, measured over 100mm, I'd say it's fine till 1.0mm, especially if you are at end of life of the cassette anyway.

Speaking of tools, another tool that I rarely see people have, let alone use, is a cassette wear indicator.

https://www.bikebling.com/Rohloff-HG-IG ... hecker.htm

With this little neat instrument, you can tell if your cassette is ok.

Those two instruments, are worth their weight in gold!

by Weenie


User avatar
otoman
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Nashville

by otoman

I ordered both, thanks for the recommendations.
Age and treachery shall overcome youth and skill

User avatar
pdlpsher1
Posts: 2212
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

I do have the Rohloff cassette checker although I haven't really used it yet as all my cassettes are still new.

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 7978
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

MrMagura wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:39 pm
At the risk of sounding like an ass, who in their right mind would use Campagnolo or Shimano chains today (unless sponsored), given they're so far behind the development, and the cost is among the highest?...
Well, you took the risk, and as far as I'm concerned... you came across exactly as you thought you might... an ass. And the rest of your post is equally asinine. So much wrong with that post, especially in light of the precision and plate profiles required in today's drive trains as well as the compatible (for optimum performance) meshing between chain and ring/teeth profiles.
Oh, and then you go on to state that your team had a ban on using Campagnolo equipment because it "was completely hopeless for road use". Nuff said on that point.

MrMagura wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 2:30 pm
zefs wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 2:23 pm
MrMagura wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:22 pm
zefs wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:17 am
I haven't bothered yet, since my Ultegra 11speed had 7000km and .5% wear, living in a hilly area. Wipe with cloth after rides, lube with MucOff ceramic once a week (or 200km), never degreased and used chain cleaner with dish soap maybe once a month.
Something about this story does not add up, I'll leave you to figure out what it is on your own, but a starting point would be to check the measuring equipment :wink:
Parktool chain checker was used. Also I only ride on dry and only had a couple of wet rides.
Note that I didn't ask which measuring tool, but suggested to check it :wink:
The most common chain wear measuring tools, are just stamped and tumbled sheet metal. Precision is questionable at best.
Much more reliable, is a simple digital caliper, and cheaper too.

7,000km at 0.5%, suggests a total life span of 14,000km for one chain.
That would be a first, even in dry conditions.
For all your talk about taking detailed measurements etc., then advising someone to check theirs... I would think you would know what these chain checkers are measuring in the first place. At 7000km, someone measures with a Park chainchecker that it's at the 0.5% wear indicator. You chime in saying that suggests a 14,000km life span. Clearly you think that at the 0.5% mark, that means the chain is 50% worn. That is not the case at all. It is merely indicating that the chain is worn by ~0.5%, or one half of one percent to spell it out. And at that point, it is ready for replacement, far from implying a lifespan of 14,000km. In fact, that 0.5% wear indicator coincides so closely with Campagnolo's recommended replacement point of 132.60mm, that there is no need to bother measuring with the calipers, unless you're curious and want to verify that the 0.5% wear indicator does indeed coincide to the point at which you should be replacing your chain. I did, and once verified, the ~$10 Park Chain Checker 3.2 is as good a tool as any to use going forward.
Image



So, in reviewing this thread, it seems that a summary "recipe" for the "non religious" home brew might be something like this...

Ingredients:
- Paraffin wax;
- Paraffin wax oil (mix to taste);
- EP Additives (STP Oil Treatment), again, mix to taste;
- Witches Cauldron (Electric rice cooker or milk warmer);
- A sift
- Long nose Needle nose pliers, or other metal utensil, for stirring and removing chains from the boiling mixture;
- A witches broom handle to hang chains to dry once removed from cauldron
- Time, lots and lots of time, when you're not standing over the cauldron stirring, you can watch it in lieu of grass growing or paint drying;
- An understanding significant other that will accept your explanation as to what that weird smell is in the house, and a promise to clean up the mess.

Collect 3-20 dirty chains in order to make the process more "efficient".
Experiment with the mix of parrafin oil to wax to find the "right" mix.
EP additives.... mix 10% STP Oil Treatment in paraffin oil, so as to end up with about 5% in the mix (ok....).
Keep testing till you get the mix right, write it down for next time (will one mix work in all conditions?... hmm).
The End... simple, easy, and most of all convenient. Your spouse will love you.

Like most chainlube threads, this one has been quite entertaining... and perhaps the most "religious" of them all.

Carry on...
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
Last edited by Calnago on Fri May 24, 2019 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

Calnago,
For starters, this thread is not about if you like to use wax for lubrication, but about how to do it, IF! you want to.
If you don't feel like, by all means, go read something else, you don't have to participate.

As previous, the reply is obviously not for Calnago, as he clearly has no interest in the topic, so it's just to keep wrong information to a minimum.

Let's do a little math shall we :D

Chain replacement is generally recommended between 0.8 and 1.0% elongation, depending who you ask.
In the beginning, the elongation per km ratio is a fair bit poorer than in the end, so the first approx. 0.2% you get fairly quickly.
This has to do with the load bearing surfaces in the chain are breaking in, or mating if you like.
After that the ratio of elongation per km drops, and it gets rather good. so depending what your favorite god dictates for the chain wear limit, mine says keep it under 1%.
0.5% elongation in fact suggests less or equal to half of the wear of a chain. Exactly half if you pray to one of the strict gods that says 0.8% is the limit.

That somebody gets 14,000km out of a chain, even under extremely clean and well lubed conditions, obviously sounds rather unlikely, hence the suggestion to check the measuring tool.
Calibrating measuing tools, is good practice to do from time to time anyway, as you never know if it somehow got out of spec, and especially when you get readings that seem bordering on the paranormal.
The reason to suggest a digital chain tool, rather than a gauge, is that contrary to any other method, besides being obviously high precision, is that you can calibrate it, which is somewhat more difficult to do with a gauge.
I've used gauges in the past as well, when any alternative would cost a mint. Yes they mostly work, and no, I'm not saying that all gauges are bad, but I've sure seen a few over the years that were.

As I realize the Campa/Shimano debate is somewhat a sore topic here, and our friend Calnago struggles a bit with reading / correct quoting, so it's quoted below.
I have earlier told I worked for a team some 20 years ago, and this is what was refered to. 20 years ago Campagnolo was indeed anything but cost effective, and generally at least a couple of years behind the Shimano, hence the ban, as it also was a financial matter to have to support several standards for races.
Today to my knowledge, Campa, Shimano, and Sram, are about on par regarding perfomance, yet Campa still isn't cost effective, but just as it mostly was in the past, Campa looks much better than the other two.
Only exemption to that, would in my opinion be the Shimano Dura Ace 7700 series, but that's a completely different chat.
MrMagura wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:53 pm
I have used KMC reusable missing links for something like 2 decades, quite possibly mounted in the thousands of chains with them, and have never had an issue. Having said that, none were Campagnolo. The team I worked for had a ban on Campagnolo (back then Campagnolo was completely hopeless for road use), for anything but track use, and I have afterwards generally seen no reason to change that point of view.
If I had to guess why the riveted assembly causes less failures than the quick links, it would be that most people think they're able to mount a quick link, where many will have the mechanic rivet a chain. So I'd say it's down to who did it, rather that which solution.
It is however a fact, that both Shimano and Campagnolo, have missed the bus when it comes to development of chains.
They both sport systems that are hardly user friendly, with their rivets and single use quick links at best.
That's simply not ok in 2019!
That Campagnolo then have chosen to up the ante, by making their cassettes and chain rings slightly incompatible with the rest of the world (with no gain), is a true pain.
One would have thought they had learned their lesson, last time (in the nineties) they ended up painting themselves into a corner.
Last edited by MrMagura on Fri May 24, 2019 6:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:16 am
I do have the Rohloff cassette checker although I haven't really used it yet as all my cassettes are still new.
That makes you a fairly rare breed! 8)
Most people have never heard of it.

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 7978
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Mr. Magoo, I fully expected a rebuttal like the one you just spewed based on your ramblings in your "Whoa is me I just spent $450 on a floor pump and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" thread. And I'm not even saying that your initial rant in that thread wasn't justified. So I'm not going to engage with you further other than to point out you are wrong on so many points in your rebuttal a couple of posts ago. No one said or implied they were getting 14,000km from a chain in this thread. That was your assumption based on your "math" which was based on an erroneous understanding of what the chain checker is actually measuring. So the 14,000Km number was yours and yours alone. What the poster said was that at 7000km his chain indicated 0.5% wear by the chain checker. That's a lot of mileage on a chain, but it is done at that point.
And "depending on who you ask"... I don't know any competent mechanic who would say that an 11 or 12sp chain shouldn't be replaced until it's between .8-1.0% wear. I can feel the difference in shifting performance when the chain is at Campy's recommended replacement wear level of 132.60, which is pretty darn close to 0.5% wear. So, while you are right that I won't be switching to your witch's brew, when ridiculous statements are being thrown about such as you have made, then sometimes a sanity check is worthwhile.
:beerchug:
Last edited by Calnago on Fri May 24, 2019 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3332
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

MrMagura, 11spd and 12spd chains are recommended to be changed at 0.5% wear... though yes some people draw this out until 0.75%.

I disagree with with your mixing of oil or EP into the wax. Paraffin does not need to be plasticized to work a lubricant. Unless you are really riding frequently in polar temperatures, this is unnecessary. As well if you are riding in those kinds of conditions, you will probably want the additional surface/outer plate protection from a wet lube.

It’s also clear Calnago is filling in gaps in his knowledge with conjecture. You don’t need to stir the pot...except for a couple of seconds before you remove the chain to release any pesky bubbles. You don’t need to watch the crockpot. You turn it on, drop the chains onto the solid wax and leave. You come back once a couple hours later if it’s a large pot with a lot of wax to turn it off... Some people remove the chains at about 180F. I prefer 150F, so I leave it for another hour. I do this all in a garage workshop...so a slight wax smell is not even the most offensive odor most of the time...general sooty hydrocarbon smells from my cars are. Besides, it's a garage...nobody is hanging out in there. Mess? The chains cool quickly when removed from the pot. I don’t unfurl them from my “swisher tool” ... I just hang them briefly on my garage door track, then store them in a tiny bin when they chains are still warm to the touch. Seriously it's about 15 minutes of actual effort and easily allows for multitasking. I never have to clean my drivetrain with anything other than a brush. I never have to wipe down my chain like I do with any drip lube.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Fri May 24, 2019 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

Sorry guys, I was dumb enough to keep on debating with Calnago.
Post deleted!
Last edited by MrMagura on Fri May 24, 2019 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:24 pm
MrMagura, 11spd and 12spd chains are recommended to be changed at 0.5% wear... though yes some people draw this out until 0.75%.

I disagree with with your mixing of oil or EP into the wax. Paraffin does not need to be plasticized to work a lubricant. Unless you are really riding frequently in polar temperatures, this is unnecessary. As well if you are riding in those kinds of conditions, you will probably want the additional surface/outer plate protection from a wet lube.

It’s also clear Calnago is filling in gaps in his knowledge with conjecture. You don’t need to stir the pot...maybe for a couple of seconds before you remove the chain to release any pesky bubbles. You don’t need to watch the crockpot. You turn it on, drop the chains onto the solid wax and leave. You come back once a couple hours later if it’s a large pot with a lot of wax to turn it off... Some people remove the chains at about 180F. I prefer 150F, so I leave it for another hour. I do this all in a garage workshop...so a slight wax smell is not even the most offensive odor most of the time. Mess? The chains cool quickly when removed from the pot. I don’t unfurl them from my “swisher tool” ... I just hang them briefly on my garage door track, then store them in a tiny bin when they chains are still warm to the touch.
The 0.5% recommendation/rule of thumb, for the narrow 11 and 12 sp. chains, in my experience (limited to 11sp), is a matter of not just running one chain, but 3 or 5 per cassette in a cycle, which makes sense given the cost of the cassettes.
Then the cassette will wear together with the chains, as the older cassettes did, since they were a bit softer.
I'm not debating 0.75 vs. 0.80% here, but it's clear that if you wanna go beyond that point, it's not a single chain job.

If you don't mix a softener into the paraffin, a large part is simply lost as dust/flakes, as it lacks adhesion. Rust also becomes an issue, depending which conditions you ride under.
Give it a try.

As for the EP additives, that is crystal clear. The wear increases a fair bit without.
The last couple of years, I've made a few 1:1 experiments, and relatively early you can see which had EP additives.

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post