Home grown chain lube.....no, not the religious way ;-)

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I dont get it. Cleaning jockey wheels is something I do every 2000km or so. Its not biggie. I would also question why. I suppose if it feels like a ritual then go for it. Personally I am not sure there is any actual benefit compared to my prefered lube which keeps the chain pretty clean and jockey wheels take a good while to jun up.

mag
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:23 pm

by mag

MrMagura wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:31 pm
1a) You can alternatively use a regular pot on a stove, but it's dangerous, and I warn against it!
There are those milk cooking pots with double walls in-between which you put some water. They could be a better alternative to a regular pot. The only possible drawback might be that they tend to be rather narrow and high than what would be more suitable here.

Still, though I like the whole pretty simplistic (and known to be working well) solution (which is remotely similar to how I wax skis), it's of no use for Campy chains unfortunately.

by Weenie


MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

bm0p700f wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:07 pm
I dont get it. Cleaning jockey wheels is something I do every 2000km or so. Its not biggie. I would also question why. I suppose if it feels like a ritual then go for it. Personally I am not sure there is any actual benefit compared to my prefered lube which keeps the chain pretty clean and jockey wheels take a good while to jun up.
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/lubetesting/

Take a look at the link to the test I posted earlier, then at the thread title, sit back for a while, let it sink in, then try again. :lol:

MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

mag wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:18 pm
MrMagura wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:31 pm
1a) You can alternatively use a regular pot on a stove, but it's dangerous, and I warn against it!
There are those milk cooking pots with double walls in-between which you put some water. They could be a better alternative to a regular pot. The only possible drawback might be that they tend to be rather narrow and high than what would be more suitable here.

Still, though I like the whole pretty simplistic (and known to be working well) solution (which is remotely similar to how I wax skis), it's of no use for Campy chains unfortunately.
I didn't mention the milk cooking pots, as I'm not sure how the plastic reacts with the wax?
Or do they come in metal as well?

Anyhow, a rice cooker is like $15 new, so at the second hand shop, it can't be a matter of national economy, and they are working by a flick of the switch.

At the risk of sounding like an ass, who in their right mind would use Campagnolo or Shimano chains today (unless sponsored), given they're so far behind the development, and the cost is among the highest?
KMC is up front in the development, and they are much cheaper. So are other brands.
Especially since Campagnolo and Shimano, haven't invented the reusable quick link yet, it's simply hopeless to get them clean enough, and as it also excludes hot waxing, the life span is too short, and the performance too poor. On a Shimano chain, you can just use a KMC quick link, but they come with their special "assembly pins" that you pay pretty dearly for as well, not to mention the hassle.
Just the fact that you can't hot wax lube them, reduces the service life by a factor somewhere between 2 and 3 :unbelievable:

EDIT: Just looked it up. KMC makes quick links for Campagnolo as well, so technically using a Campagnolo chain is possible, it's just twice as expensive, and you have to turn to KMC to make it work.
So they're on par with Shimano in this regard, equally behind :lol:

AJS914
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by AJS914

IME, Campagnolo chains are quieter than KMC chains on a Campagnolo drive train.

mag
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:23 pm

by mag

Yes those milk cooking pots are metallic, like this one for example:
https://www.zokura.com/en/cookware/32-d ... k-pot.html
Note that this one is a big one (3.5l) and it seems to be pretty wide so it should be more than fine. Usually you see some around 1.5-2l and those are often tall and narrow.

As for the chains, I can speak of the Campagnolo only. Here the riveting method of connecting results in very secure connection which very rarely fails. The KMC MissingLink connection, especially if its reusable version is used, has been seen to fail sometimes - definitely much more than the classically riveted connection. These failures may be mostly due to incorrect installation, however it's hard to deny that the ML is generally more prone to failure. And if you're the unlucky one and the ML fails and causes some serious damage to the drivetrain components you're out of the warranty (not counting that the warranty issues might be of the least importance for you if you crash hard).

Moreover if you're on the 12-speed Campy groupset your options could be more limited or at least there's more risk to it at the moment.
The KMC MissingLink 12 (only non-reusable being available as of now) should work with the Campy chain (5.15 vs 5.2 mm width) and KMC EU (but strangely only KMC EU) claims it does indeed work and I know someone has already tried that with success so it seems like a real possibility.
As for the chain itself, KMC X12/DLC12 chains should work too, KMC TW and USA claim some really do (but the information is quite inconsistent so they need to sort it out), but I don't know if anyone tried that. As these chains are slightly wider (though the difference is really small) they may run less cleanly / more noisy. And they're heavier than the SR 12 chain (we're at Weight Weenies after all), but I guess the lighter SL versions will appear some day.

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otoman
Posts: 480
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Location: Nashville

by otoman

The Shimano CN-HG701 11 sp chain I just installed had a missing link rather than pin. I was pleasantly surprised! But alas, not reusable.
Age and treachery shall overcome youth and skill

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

otoman wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:13 am
The Shimano CN-HG701 11 sp chain I just installed had a missing link rather than pin. I was pleasantly surprised! But alas, not reusable.
I just buy Wippermann chains every once in a while and transfer the toolless/reusable Connex link to other chains a couple times.

With wax, my chains last something like 8000 miles anyway. It's hard to pin down an exact number, because I cycle through 5 chains, all of which wear pretty evenly.

Re: convenience
Waxing takes a block of time, but not effort. You fashion a couple of hooks out of wire coathangers from the dry cleaners. You thread your chain on them. You drop them in a crockpot filled with solidified wax, turn the crockpot on and walk away for a couple hours until the wax melts and reaches 200F. Do whatever you want in the meantime. Come back, turn off the crockpot, go do something for another hour while the wax cools to around 150F. Pull the hooks out and let them cool/drip over the pot for a minute before hanging them somewhere to cool completely. With 5 chains, I only have to do this every couple of months...it's about 15 minutes of actual time wasted for those 5 chains...every 2 months. I don't have to wipe the chains down or relube them individually every 150-200mi or so. I don't have to do any real drivetrain cleaning other than brushing off wax flakes from my DS chainstay after the first ride with a freshly waxed chain.

mattr
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by mattr

bm0p700f wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:07 pm
I dont get it. Cleaning jockey wheels is something I do every 2000km or so. Its not biggie. I would also question why. I suppose if it feels like a ritual then go for it. Personally I am not sure there is any actual benefit compared to my prefered lube which keeps the chain pretty clean and jockey wheels take a good while to jun up.
I need to clean mine every 3rd or 4th ride, even if i forget to lube the chain (so completely dry), 2000km, they'd just be muddy lumps with barely visible teeth. The MTB needs cleaning more often.

zefs
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

I haven't bothered yet, since my Ultegra 11speed had 7000km and .5% wear, living in a hilly area. Wipe with cloth after rides, lube with MucOff ceramic once a week (or 200km), never degreased and used chain cleaner with dish soap maybe once a month.

MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

zefs wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:17 am
I haven't bothered yet, since my Ultegra 11speed had 7000km and .5% wear, living in a hilly area. Wipe with cloth after rides, lube with MucOff ceramic once a week (or 200km), never degreased and used chain cleaner with dish soap maybe once a month.
Something about this story does not add up, I'll leave you to figure out what it is on your own, but a starting point would be to check the measuring equipment :wink:

MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

mag wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:50 am
Yes those milk cooking pots are metallic, like this one for example:
https://www.zokura.com/en/cookware/32-d ... k-pot.html
Note that this one is a big one (3.5l) and it seems to be pretty wide so it should be more than fine. Usually you see some around 1.5-2l and those are often tall and narrow.

As for the chains, I can speak of the Campagnolo only. Here the riveting method of connecting results in very secure connection which very rarely fails. The KMC MissingLink connection, especially if its reusable version is used, has been seen to fail sometimes - definitely much more than the classically riveted connection. These failures may be mostly due to incorrect installation, however it's hard to deny that the ML is generally more prone to failure. And if you're the unlucky one and the ML fails and causes some serious damage to the drivetrain components you're out of the warranty (not counting that the warranty issues might be of the least importance for you if you crash hard).

Moreover if you're on the 12-speed Campy groupset your options could be more limited or at least there's more risk to it at the moment.
The KMC MissingLink 12 (only non-reusable being available as of now) should work with the Campy chain (5.15 vs 5.2 mm width) and KMC EU (but strangely only KMC EU) claims it does indeed work and I know someone has already tried that with success so it seems like a real possibility.
As for the chain itself, KMC X12/DLC12 chains should work too, KMC TW and USA claim some really do (but the information is quite inconsistent so they need to sort it out), but I don't know if anyone tried that. As these chains are slightly wider (though the difference is really small) they may run less cleanly / more noisy. And they're heavier than the SR 12 chain (we're at Weight Weenies after all), but I guess the lighter SL versions will appear some day.

Ok, that milk pot is not a bad option. Still I'd pick the electrical rice cooker though.

I have used KMC reusable missing links for something like 2 decades, quite possibly mounted in the thousands of chains with them, and have never had an issue. Having said that, none were Campagnolo. The team I worked for had a ban on Campagnolo (back then Campagnolo was completely hopeless for road use), for anything but track use, and I have afterwards generally seen no reason to change that point of view.
If I had to guess why the riveted assembly causes less failures than the quick links, it would be that most people think they're able to mount a quick link, where many will have the mechanic rivet a chain. So I'd say it's down to who did it, rather that which solution.

There are two requirements to be 100% sure they work:

1) Correct installation, and while that may seem obvious, it's not! People don't check the backside, and the chain can actually work if the link is not mounted correctly, just not very long.
I've seen this happen more than once.
There are pliers for the purpose, and by using those you can feel if it's snapping in correctly.

2) The rider needs a minimum of skill. So no shifting at low RPM.

....and yes, KMC could do better when it comes to information world wide, but the info you get from the europeans is to my knowledge always correct.

As for the WW aspect of things, if anybody cares much about weight, they sure don't use Campagnolo (and never did).
Lightest groupset by far is Sram Red, at some 1700 and something grams. Lightest Campagnolo is like half a pound heavier to my recollection. :wink:

MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:35 am
otoman wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:13 am
The Shimano CN-HG701 11 sp chain I just installed had a missing link rather than pin. I was pleasantly surprised! But alas, not reusable.
I just buy Wippermann chains every once in a while and transfer the toolless/reusable Connex link to other chains a couple times.

With wax, my chains last something like 8000 miles anyway. It's hard to pin down an exact number, because I cycle through 5 chains, all of which wear pretty evenly.

Re: convenience
Waxing takes a block of time, but not effort. You fashion a couple of hooks out of wire coathangers from the dry cleaners. You thread your chain on them. You drop them in a crockpot filled with solidified wax, turn the crockpot on and walk away for a couple hours until the wax melts and reaches 200F. Do whatever you want in the meantime. Come back, turn off the crockpot, go do something for another hour while the wax cools to around 150F. Pull the hooks out and let them cool/drip over the pot for a minute before hanging them somewhere to cool completely. With 5 chains, I only have to do this every couple of months...it's about 15 minutes of actual time wasted for those 5 chains...every 2 months. I don't have to wipe the chains down or relube them individually every 150-200mi or so. I don't have to do any real drivetrain cleaning other than brushing off wax flakes from my DS chainstay after the first ride with a freshly waxed chain.
Re: convenience
Exactly!

As for the Wippermann chains, I have had poor experiences with them in the past, but that was back in the 8 speed days :lol:
Today they are supposed to be up there with KMC and the rest.

zefs
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

MrMagura wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:22 pm
zefs wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:17 am
I haven't bothered yet, since my Ultegra 11speed had 7000km and .5% wear, living in a hilly area. Wipe with cloth after rides, lube with MucOff ceramic once a week (or 200km), never degreased and used chain cleaner with dish soap maybe once a month.
Something about this story does not add up, I'll leave you to figure out what it is on your own, but a starting point would be to check the measuring equipment :wink:
Parktool chain checker was used. Also I only ride on dry and only had a couple of wet rides.
Maybe the lack of watts is to blame.

MrMagura
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:38 pm

by MrMagura

zefs wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 2:23 pm
MrMagura wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:22 pm
zefs wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:17 am
I haven't bothered yet, since my Ultegra 11speed had 7000km and .5% wear, living in a hilly area. Wipe with cloth after rides, lube with MucOff ceramic once a week (or 200km), never degreased and used chain cleaner with dish soap maybe once a month.
Something about this story does not add up, I'll leave you to figure out what it is on your own, but a starting point would be to check the measuring equipment :wink:
Parktool chain checker was used. Also I only ride on dry and only had a couple of wet rides.
Note that I didn't ask which measuring tool, but suggested to check it :wink:
The most common chain wear measuring tools, are just stamped and tumbled sheet metal. Precision is questionable at best.
Much more reliable, is a simple digital caliper, and cheaper too.

7,000km at 0.5%, suggests a total life span of 14,000km for one chain.
That would be a first, even in dry conditions.

by Weenie


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