What is Trek launching?

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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fromtrektocolnago
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by fromtrektocolnago

AJS914 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:25 pm
fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:24 am
if this new helmet makes old helmets obsolete by comparison shouldn't Trek be marking down all their old helmets?
Many of their helmets have been on sale for the last month. Maybe they are keeping the Ballista MIPs in their lineup at the $200 price point. I imagine the market for the $300 aero helmet is small.

Interestingly, in the Virginia Tech study, my Ballista MIPS rates a 10.9. The XXX WaveCell rates a 10.8 - only a .1 improvement. It's not quite a 30 year advance over yesterdays top of the line helmet tech.
Trek claims the new helmet is so good it scores a 5. There currently are other helmets that score a 5.
Not saying this isn't an improvement but the numerical score doesnt' prove it
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guyc
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by guyc

This one goes to eleven.

by Weenie


Karvalo
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by Karvalo

Calnago wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:13 am
And this study...funded by oh... shall I take a wild guess.
Sure. But the thing is, wild concept I know, sometimes people invent stuff that works and when they tell you it works they're telling the truth.

So is there a particular part of the study that you think is unreliable or may have been fudged?

AJS914
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by AJS914

It's the monstrous marketing spin that turns everybody off.

Karvalo
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by Karvalo

I guess that didn't bother me with the helmet because I'd never thought it would be a 30 year revolution no matter what the product. But for sure they shot themselves in the foot there, it was way overhyped.

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853guy
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by 853guy

Karvalo wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:43 pm
I guess that didn't bother me with the helmet because I'd never thought it would be a 30 year revolution no matter what the product. But for sure they shot themselves in the foot there, it was way overhyped.
Marketing is marketing.

Data is data.

Sometimes they're in conflict, and sometimes they're not.

In this specific case, what both the marketing and the data have made explicitly clear is that the results are based on a study that "compares standard foam helmets and the same helmets with WaveCel inserts in a simulation of a typical bike crash" (emphasis mine).

In other words, in the real world, in real bike crashes, there's zero guarantee of WaveCel proving effective in preventing concussion. That Trek's marketing team decided not to go with that as their opening campaign statement won't come as a surprise to anyone.

Caveat emptor.

Best,

853guy

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Karvalo wrote:
Calnago wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:13 am
And this study...funded by oh... shall I take a wild guess.
Sure. But the thing is, wild concept I know, sometimes people invent stuff that works and when they tell you it works they're telling the truth.

So is there a particular part of the study that you think is unreliable or may have been fudged?
“Sometimes” I’m sure you are absolutely right. But when studies are commissioned or funded by a party or related parties where the outcome of those studies could have a financial impact on their business, they are never really “independent”.
Same as reviews... If I was a magazine reviewer for, let’s just say “Bicycling Magazine”, and I was reviewing a Trek bike, knowing full well that Trek had no less than four full page ads accompanying the issue, do you think I’m really going to say anything explicitly bad about it. I may word things as to not outright lie, and hint at things in a roundabout way, without really calling anything significant out, but that’s about the extent of it. I used that example simply because that appeared to be how it was when the Emonda came out. Guess which was featured on the cover as “Bike of The Year”. Ha, now I happen to think the Emonda is a fantastic bike, but that’s not due to what the magazine reviewers had to say, because what they have to say is pretty generic and that’s a given. If they “don’t” say it corners like it’s on rails, then that’s a bad review. Nuff said on that.
That’s why with any of these things you need to look at and consider them with a critical eye and thought process, not just blindly accept the rationale that it’s new, they say it’s great, therefore it must be better, and if course, great. But that seems to be a pretty common scenario in this industry.
This new helmet may very well be the safest bike helmet available at the moment. I don’t mean to imply it’s not. I don’t automatically accept that it unequivocally is, however. And truth is, I’m going to buy the one that fits my head the best and is most comfortable to wear. I had a Giro Synthe on when I crashed hard, broke the helmet and other things holding my body together, and ended up in ER with a concussion. But I lived. And the replacement helmet was a MIPS Giro. Hated the plastic liner so much I got rid of it and went back to the Synthe (non MIPS). I’m fine for helmets now but that new Giro Aether looks interesting. I mean, if I were looking for a new one and all. This wave cell stuff looks like it could end up looking like your dirty furnace filter after a bit and be really hard to keep clean. I don’t know, I’ll see one for real soon enough.
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Karvalo
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by Karvalo

853guy wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:05 pm
In other words, in the real world, in real bike crashes, there's zero guarantee of WaveCel proving effective in preventing concussion.
No kidding. I know we live in a world now where people have to be warned that fresh coffee is hot, but quite frankly anyone who can't work that out for themselves deserves to have their brain scrambled. It probably wouldn't make any difference anyway.

Karvalo
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by Karvalo

Calnago wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:43 pm
“Sometimes”.....
So in response to my question, there's no part of the data in the study you disagree with?

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kkibbler
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by kkibbler

Karvalo wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:01 am
No kidding. I know we live in a world now where people have to be warned that fresh coffee is hot, but quite frankly anyone who can't work that out for themselves deserves to have their brain scrambled. It probably wouldn't make any difference anyway.
I’ve no dog in the helmet race but it always annoys when people with a shallow/poor understanding of the hot-coffee case mine it for quips.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Is there a single study or battery of tests that will satisfy those demanding real-world data? That takes years—decades, by which time the technology will have been superseded by something else. Simulated crash results are the best we’ve got in the timeframe that matters.

I know in the pro tour, helmet manufacturers try to recover crashed helmets for forensic purposes, but that’s not happening when a random cyclist is involved in a collision and taken to the ER.

TheRich
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by TheRich

fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:47 pm
AJS914 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:25 pm
fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:24 am
if this new helmet makes old helmets obsolete by comparison shouldn't Trek be marking down all their old helmets?
Many of their helmets have been on sale for the last month. Maybe they are keeping the Ballista MIPs in their lineup at the $200 price point. I imagine the market for the $300 aero helmet is small.

Interestingly, in the Virginia Tech study, my Ballista MIPS rates a 10.9. The XXX WaveCell rates a 10.8 - only a .1 improvement. It's not quite a 30 year advance over yesterdays top of the line helmet tech.
Trek claims the new helmet is so good it scores a 5. There currently are other helmets that score a 5.
Not saying this isn't an improvement but the numerical score doesnt' prove it
A test is limited by the testing protocals. If everything sucks at something, you just don't test it or record it because it's not a differentiating factor. But one look at a MIPS helmet and the WaveCell tells you that the WaveCell will do a better job of absorbing a shearing force.

That said, I just got a Ballista because I wanted a Ballista and they're on sale. Maybe if it turns out being too hot, and depending on testing and reviews, I'll get a XXX for a summer helmet to replace my Synthe when they're finally in stock again.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

TheRich wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:56 am

That said, I just got a Ballista because I wanted a Ballista and they're on sale. Maybe if it turns out being too hot, and depending on testing and reviews, I'll get a XXX for a summer helmet to replace my Synthe when they're finally in stock again.

Ventilation is not a strong point of these cell/corrugated designs. At least some of the "pipes" won't be parallel to wind direction at all times, both increasing frontal area and preventing air from entering the space between your head and EPS foam and also from exhausting out the back. These helmets probably also produce more drag in addition to definitely weighing more.

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alistaird
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by alistaird

fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:28 pm
alistaird wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:25 pm
Good thread... Just put my name down for a Hexo Helmet....

A

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

Why do you like the Hexo helmet over the Bontrager?
Sorry for the delayed answer - I was looking for 3 things to be improved over my Kask - safety, fit, aerodynamics. From my limited research the Hexo was a better option and worth a try. We will see - head scan is in a couple of weeks.

A

by Weenie


izza
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by izza

TobinHatesYou wrote:
TheRich wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:56 am

That said, I just got a Ballista because I wanted a Ballista and they're on sale. Maybe if it turns out being too hot, and depending on testing and reviews, I'll get a XXX for a summer helmet to replace my Synthe when they're finally in stock again.

Ventilation is not a strong point of these cell/corrugated designs. At least some of the "pipes" won't be parallel to wind direction at all times, both increasing frontal area and preventing air from entering the space between your head and EPS foam and also from exhausting out the back. These helmets probably also produce more drag in addition to definitely weighing more.
Riding mine this morning the airflow is not as direct as a Velocis. Hardly surprising. However 1) it never felt like I was overheating 2) there was a definite cooling when I got tired and looked at my stem.

Aero wise - hard to comment as I forgot to take my laptop down to complete some CFD. Whether Wavecel traps air to help moving air stay as lamina flow over the top is down to the lab technicians / marketing men. All I know was that the wind noise was as low or even quieter than the Ballista. Noise vs reported drag has had a strong correlation in my personal experience.

Comfort - personal issue but I found mine to be very comfortable. I switched liner to the mo sweat version and had no drops on the shades during a 90 minute ride.

So not thorough but as first tests go, it was a positive experience.


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