Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

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fxx
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by fxx

ome rodriguez wrote:70% of the peloton in giro d’ italia and tour of california still using rimbrakes.
Yes I noticed that too and observing if disc brakes bikes are up to it at the final sprint with the extra weight.

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by Weenie


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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:07 am
flying wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:03 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:15 am
It's really simple guys - it costs manufacturers a lot more money to have a supply line that makes both rim and disc brake options. You need more molds, more R&D, more inventory, etc.
Actually They already have everything as they were already building & selling Rim Brakes

It is the disc additions that they take the calculated risk on tooling up for.

That aside........I think both will be available longer than we are :wink:
If we are to stop development right now, yes you are correct. But as we know, new models are constantly being developed and coming out. So in order to support R&D and manufacturing and supply for both rim and disc, you need basically two entirely different processes given that disc frames are quite different from rim brakes. For example, you would need two different processes for aerodynamic testing for each new model in development.
I said it before, but I really don't see the difficulty in doing that. They have N+1 bike for all seasons and reasons. Heck then they have womens bikes.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

You can quote sales numbers by Trek inc USA that show numbers of people that are buying disk brakes. It's doesn't matter, there will always be a hardcore of rim brake riders and a few companies that will always cater for us. Even some of the big players will probably keep a rimbrake frame option indefinately. There's enough people that don't want disk brakes and enough disk brake refugees. Disk brakes simply don't offer enough real world gains so rim brake bikes will always be competitive.

Nobody is really ever going to lose any kind of race from not having disks on the road, essentially they're a fashion item, they're a gain too marginal to matter. When they weigh the same as rim brakes, never rub and are cross-compatible without adjustment then we can talk about real gains from braking as there would be fewer or almost no losses, so why not? But for now they can keep their MTB brakes for the road as far as I'm concerned. Go back to the R&D department, do some R&D and come back when you've got something better.

My issue is look at DH and Enduro mountain biking:
-26 inch wheels, changed to 29inch
-OK, some 26 inch and some 29 inch
-Then no 26 inch replaced with 27.5 inch, but still keep 29 inch
-Now 29 inch losing popularity to 27.5 inch
-Then 27.5 inch mostly replaced by 29 inch
-Now some 27.5 inch, some 29 inch, but now some 29 inch front wheel and 27.5 rear wheel

This is what cycle fashion brings you, and then mix it up for different discpines like freestyle, XC and rider size. Basically you'll end up spending lots of money keeping up with fashion.
Last edited by Lewn777 on Wed May 15, 2019 2:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

RTW
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by RTW

There is no difficulty in developing two versions of the same frame. It is a question of resource.

Given that the majority of customers will buy disc because it’s ‘better’ manufacturers are going to prefer to use their engineering resource and investment in moulds etc to create better versions of their current disc offering, or new categories to sell that +1 bicycle. It is unlikely that they will want to use that resource for an increasingly niche customer base. Spend x to create a new rim brake version of a disc bike, or spend that same x to create a new, lighter version of that same disc bike and sell it to more people. This lighter version at some point will allow the same complete bike weight as rim does today.

Long term rim brake will continue for cheaper bikes, and some select manufacturers will continue building it for high end as long as rim and brake manufacturers support it (which will be a long time).

You don’t have to like this (and clearly don’t). I feel somewhat similarly about electronic shifting. But inevitably there will come a time when I too will have it, and by then it will probably have so many advantages and very few / no disadvantages pertaining charging / cost / weight - or, I will simply have put my objections to oneside, accepted it in the same way that we all have accepted having a mobile phone as being normal (which it wasn’t for parts of my life) and get on with my day. Occasionally we will talk about the old days with misty eyes and tell anyone who will listen that things were better back then!
Your cycling kit is one size too big!

ND4SPD
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by ND4SPD

Calnago wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:04 am
I’m just curious what is so bad about using mineral oil, at least in the application of hydraulics to bicycles. They aren’t race cars, and I’ve never had a problem with the mineral oil. Whereas the DOT fluid can be pretty nasty stuff to work with and has the potential to be unkind to paint finishes etc. It seems that by most accounts Campagnolo’s hydraulics work as well or better than any, although I’ve never had a chance to use them yet. They use mineral oil as well. I guess if it works just fine for disc brake applications in bicycles, why would you want to use something else with more potential harmful effects. I don’t know, I really haven’t thought too much about using DOT fluid other than for being glad I don’t have to.
Mineral oil is hydrophobic. If any water enters the system which is using mineral oil, and sooner or later it will, the boiling point is instantly reduced to the standard boiling point of water (at sea level or if you want at 1013.25 mbar, or approximately 1 atm), ergo - 100°C. That may, or may not be such a problem on the bicycles, except "sluggish" or "spongy" feeling of the brakes.

All cars use DOT brake fluid. These fluids are hygroscopic. Let's say you have some better DOT fluid, like Castrol SRF, which have dry boiling point at 320°C, and wet boiling point at 270°C:

https://www.docdroid.net/lhj6c9m/10587- ... racing.pdf

Or something cheaper, let's say Motul RBF 660 with 325°C dry boiling point, and 205°C wet boiling point:

https://www.docdroid.net/t8rLad8/rbf-66 ... 8gb-29.pdf

When new, that Castrol SRF will have 320°C boiling point, but due to hydrophilic nature, it can absorb water... Depending on how much water is in the system, dry boiling point will start to drop. Wet boiling point (in case of Castrol SRF - 270°C) is reached when the fluid has absorbed 3.7% water by volume.

You have mentioned race cars. They have pads that can have temperature range from 135°C to 1093°C+:

https://ctbrakes.com/choosingcompounds/

There is also a common use of titanium pad shields/shims (ventilated or solid), placed between the pad back and the pistons, to help to keep the braking heat from transferring into the pistons and fluid.

Using mineral oil in brakes for cars would be close to suicide attempt.

DOT fluid and paint? If it drops on the paint, just wipe it off immediately, and no harm is done.

There is also a good article worth of reading:

DOT Brake Fluid vs. Mineral Oil - and the Winner is..

https://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/blog ... neral-oil/

And do I need to mention that is one more thing that is not standarized, just like thru axles...

icantaffordcycling
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am

by icantaffordcycling

Lewn777 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:26 pm
You can quote sales numbers by Trek inc USA that show numbers of people that are buying disk brakes. It's doesn't matter, there will always be a hardcore of rim brake riders and a few companies that will always cater for us.

This is what cycle fashion brings you, and then mix it up for different disciplines like freestyle, XC and rider size. Basically, you'll end up spending lots of money keeping up with fashion.
@Lewn777 Nobody is saying "The option of buying a rim brake bike must be prevented by any means necessary, bullying, market subversion, advertising, pseudo-science, and bribery are not of limits because it's the 'natural evolution of better technology'." except for you. Literally, nobody on this thread has advocated for the removal of all rim brake options other than your paranoia. The argument that you make is not an invalid one but the points that you use to support it are so grossly incorrect it honestly hurts to read. You make statements like "most experienced riders don't want disc brakes" like you can read the minds of all pros and experienced cyclists. Unless you are a greater being, which from your posts, it seems like you think you are, you are making points that blow your argument over proportion.
Everyone on this thread also agrees that companies are marketing disc brake bikes. So what? How do companies marketing disc brake bikes affect you personally? As you said above. There will be niche companies that will cater to hardcore rim brake riders. Move on. Marketing disc increases large companies margins and from what I can tell most companies are in the business of making money. How does what the pros ride affect you if you have already decided that what they are riding is a pure marketing ploy and you want to be part of this niche "hardcore" group of rim brake users? Why do you have to make every thread an argument about disc vs. rim?
I understand that you made this thread to address that pros are being coerced into using disc brakes, but you did not make a point about why this matters or affects you. When somebody says that putting pros on disc is a marketing ploy you somehow manage to disagree with them while forgetting that your original point is exactly the same thing.

@some others: Again, I don't see anyone forcing you onto disc. Just because some pros are riding disc does not force you to use them. There will always be a niche rim brake company. Cycling, especially the high-end cycling equipment market is a buyers market, people buy with their dollars. If there was no demand for high-end disc brake bikes than companies would not sell them, it is as simple as that.

Back to @Lewn777, You claim that marketing verges on the point of being manipulation. Call me dumb but I call that type of marketing effective. You constantly talk about the cons of disc brakes rubbing. Well news flash improperly: set up rim brakes rub too!

Points that everyone knows as factual and you all do not have to bring up again:
- Most pros ride what they are paid to ride
- Disc groupsets are heavier than rim (comparing apples to apples)
- Wet braking on carbon rims sucks.
- Companies like to make money
- Predictions about the future are opinions
- this thread is a joke

Yours truly,
icantaffordcycling
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Instagram || Shitposting is a god-given right.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

icantaffordcycling wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:07 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:26 pm
You can quote sales numbers by Trek inc USA that show numbers of people that are buying disk brakes. It's doesn't matter, there will always be a hardcore of rim brake riders and a few companies that will always cater for us.

This is what cycle fashion brings you, and then mix it up for different disciplines like freestyle, XC and rider size. Basically, you'll end up spending lots of money keeping up with fashion.
@Lewn777 Nobody is saying "The option of buying a rim brake bike must be prevented by any means necessary, bullying, market subversion, advertising, pseudo-science, and bribery are not of limits because it's the 'natural evolution of better technology'." except for you. Literally, nobody on this thread has advocated for the removal of all rim brake options other than your paranoia. The argument that you make is not an invalid one but the points that you use to support it are so grossly incorrect it honestly hurts to read. You make statements like "most experienced riders don't want disc brakes" like you can read the minds of all pros and experienced cyclists. Unless you are a greater being, which from your posts, it seems like you think you are, you are making points that blow your argument over proportion.
Everyone on this thread also agrees that companies are marketing disc brake bikes. So what? How do companies marketing disc brake bikes affect you personally? As you said above. There will be niche companies that will cater to hardcore rim brake riders. Move on. Marketing disc increases large companies margins and from what I can tell most companies are in the business of making money. How does what the pros ride affect you if you have already decided that what they are riding is a pure marketing ploy and you want to be part of this niche "hardcore" group of rim brake users? Why do you have to make every thread an argument about disc vs. rim?
I understand that you made this thread to address that pros are being coerced into using disc brakes, but you did not make a point about why this matters or affects you. When somebody says that putting pros on disc is a marketing ploy you somehow manage to disagree with them while forgetting that your original point is exactly the same thing.

@some others: Again, I don't see anyone forcing you onto disc. Just because some pros are riding disc does not force you to use them. There will always be a niche rim brake company. Cycling, especially the high-end cycling equipment market is a buyers market, people buy with their dollars. If there was no demand for high-end disc brake bikes than companies would not sell them, it is as simple as that.

Back to @Lewn777, You claim that marketing verges on the point of being manipulation. Call me dumb but I call that type of marketing effective. You constantly talk about the cons of disc brakes rubbing. Well news flash improperly: set up rim brakes rub too!

Points that everyone knows as factual and you all do not have to bring up again:
- Most pros ride what they are paid to ride
- Disc groupsets are heavier than rim (comparing apples to apples)
- Wet braking on carbon rims sucks.
- Companies like to make money
- Predictions about the future are opinions
- this thread is a joke

Yours truly,
icantaffordcycling
Dear icantaffordcycling,

If you don't like the thread and think it's a joke then don't post in it. If you don't like my opinion and want me to shut up then don't directly bait me with an ad-hominem attack. :roll: You seem to be doing EXACTLY the opposite from what you want to achieve. :noidea: By posting here you are bumping the thread and I was going to leave it. I went too far because I was wound up by disk brake fanboys.

While we're here, I'm not paranoid. :| :smartass:
I'm experienced in the ways of the cycle industry and what they did to 26 inch mountain bike wheels and forced to obselence of this wheel size because of a marginal gain that wasn't worth the effort, landfill and pain. The industry went too far and the psuedo-science claims of Giant bicycles and others were absolute lies. There are people inside the industry that are still bitter and annoyed about it. I'm vocal because I don't want to see this all happen again and history repeat itself. You'd be well advised to find out about it and make have a properly informed opinion, instead of your clueless pro disk brake ramblings based from the fact that you've recently bought a aero disk brake bike so you're totally baised.

Yours Sincerely,
Lewn

icantaffordcycling
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am

by icantaffordcycling

Read my post again. There were no "pro disc ramblings" in my post. I am obviously biased, we all are in some way: and that is human. I have a problem with the way that you argue your point and pointed out some logical fallacies that annoyed me. In the entirety of my post, I did not once advocate for disc brake. In the entirety of my post, I did not shit on rim brakes. I pointed out that your argument, although valid was argued completely incorrectly. Feel free to say what you want this thread does not warrant any more of my time.

Edit:
I decided to add to my response. There was no ad-hominem attack, I was just questioning your motives. Now I understand that you are an environmentalist and care about landfill and the pain of adopting new technology in cycling. Good for you. :thumbup: I made points about your argument I did not state my opinion on disc brakes once in my previous response.
Last edited by icantaffordcycling on Thu May 16, 2019 6:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

ND4SPD wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:28 am
Calnago wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:04 am
I’m just curious what is so bad about using mineral oil, at least in the application of hydraulics to bicycles. They aren’t race cars, and I’ve never had a problem with the mineral oil. Whereas the DOT fluid can be pretty nasty stuff to work with and has the potential to be unkind to paint finishes etc. It seems that by most accounts Campagnolo’s hydraulics work as well or better than any, although I’ve never had a chance to use them yet. They use mineral oil as well. I guess if it works just fine for disc brake applications in bicycles, why would you want to use something else with more potential harmful effects. I don’t know, I really haven’t thought too much about using DOT fluid other than for being glad I don’t have to.
Mineral oil is hydrophobic. If any water enters the system which is using mineral oil, and sooner or later it will, the boiling point is instantly reduced to the standard boiling point of water (at sea level or if you want at 1013.25 mbar, or approximately 1 atm), ergo - 100°C. That may, or may not be such a problem on the bicycles, except "sluggish" or "spongy" feeling of the brakes.

All cars use DOT brake fluid. These fluids are hygroscopic. Let's say you have some better DOT fluid, like Castrol SRF, which have dry boiling point at 320°C, and wet boiling point at 270°C:

https://www.docdroid.net/lhj6c9m/10587- ... racing.pdf

Or something cheaper, let's say Motul RBF 660 with 325°C dry boiling point, and 205°C wet boiling point:

https://www.docdroid.net/t8rLad8/rbf-66 ... 8gb-29.pdf

When new, that Castrol SRF will have 320°C boiling point, but due to hydrophilic nature, it can absorb water... Depending on how much water is in the system, dry boiling point will start to drop. Wet boiling point (in case of Castrol SRF - 270°C) is reached when the fluid has absorbed 3.7% water by volume.

You have mentioned race cars. They have pads that can have temperature range from 135°C to 1093°C+:

https://ctbrakes.com/choosingcompounds/

There is also a common use of titanium pad shields/shims (ventilated or solid), placed between the pad back and the pistons, to help to keep the braking heat from transferring into the pistons and fluid.

Using mineral oil in brakes for cars would be close to suicide attempt.

DOT fluid and paint? If it drops on the paint, just wipe it off immediately, and no harm is done.

There is also a good article worth of reading:

DOT Brake Fluid vs. Mineral Oil - and the Winner is..

https://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/blog ... neral-oil/

And do I need to mention that is one more thing that is not standarized, just like thru axles...
Yes on paper DOT fluid is better than mineral oil. Like ceramic bearings a bicycle can't make use of the extra heat dissipating performance gains. Shimano mineral oil brakes are the best in the business, simply look at any round of the mountain biking world cup and you'll see how well mineral oil performs in real life on a bicycle.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

icantaffordcycling wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:23 am
Read my post again. There were no "pro disc ramblings" in my post. I am obviously biased, we all are in some way: and that is human. I have a problem with the way that you argue your point and pointed out some logical fallacies that annoyed me. In the entirety of my post, I did not once advocate for disc brake. In the entirety of my post, I did not shit on rim brakes. I pointed out that your argument, although valid was argued completely incorrectly. Feel free to say what you want this thread does not warrant any more of my time.

Edit:
I decided to add to my response. There was no ad-hominem attack, I was just questioning your motives. Now I understand that you are an environmentalist and care about landfill and the pain of adopting new technology in cycling. Good for you. :thumbup: I made points about your argument I did not state my opinion on disc brakes once in my previous response.
I wanted this thread to die but you're reviving it, my time as your is much better spent helping others and find out new things about the bikes we love and riding them. However calling a thread I started a joke is a bit of an attack though when lots of people agree with my less paranoid and more logical musings.

In MTB the shift from tubes to tubeless ruffled few feathers as did indexed gearing and hydraulic disc brakes. The shift from 26 to 27.5 did cause huge online fame-wars, and it WAS marketing led. Beware and be cynical. You also don't see me pissy over electronic gearing, 12 speed groupsets or road tubeless (I have issues with the expense and availalibity but not the concept).

See this is always the problem in the cycle industry, changes that are too marginal are basically verging on fashion, then the poo hits the fan. Adopters feel alienated because they don't want to feel they've been misled or manipulated and the non-adopters are paranoid and defensive because they feel like people are trying to manipulate them or artifically force unneccessary change on them and make obselete their hard-earned equipment.

The fault isn't really ours, it actually the fault of the cycling industry, if they had made better road specific hydralic brakes that were lighter, didin't rub and had better standardization I wouldn't have had the amunition to even start this thread. So it's basically the fault of SRAM or Shimano. :lol:

RTW
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by RTW

If a professional rider were to prefer rim brakes, and were to reject their disc brake bike, purchase 2x rim brake versions of the same bikes with their own money, pay them to be painted up correctly, purchase some wheels as spares for the car and go to the team and tell them this is what they want, then as long as the rider was a big enough name, I don't imagine for a moment this would be a problem!
Your cycling kit is one size too big!

dastott
Posts: 178
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by dastott

In my area of Japan I don't know any serious cyclists (regular racers or Strava KOM hunters or big mileage guys) that have discs on their road bike. Almost all ride carbon wheels though.

fxx
Posts: 129
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by fxx

dastott wrote:In my area of Japan I don't know any serious cyclists (regular racers or Strava KOM hunters or big mileage guys) that have discs on their road bike. Almost all ride carbon wheels though.
Asian cyclists seldom want disc because the riders are light around 60 kgs so they feel that disc brakes are unnecessary.

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jlok
Posts: 1061
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

dastott wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:03 am
In my area of Japan I don't know any serious cyclists (regular racers or Strava KOM hunters or big mileage guys) that have discs on their road bike. Almost all ride carbon wheels though.
When I rode Shimanami Kaido in April, I think DB:RB was ard 1:10.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

by Weenie


jlok
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

fxx wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:24 am
dastott wrote:In my area of Japan I don't know any serious cyclists (regular racers or Strava KOM hunters or big mileage guys) that have discs on their road bike. Almost all ride carbon wheels though.
Asian cyclists seldom want disc because the riders are light around 60 kgs so they feel that disc brakes are unnecessary.

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I think it depends on a few things like DB/RB availability at shop (aka marketing push by some folks), the terrain and weather. Look at Taiwan, there're more and more ppl starting to appreciate the benefits of DB due to the hills and unstable weather. It's not staying home when it rains, it's more like it might rain during a ride.

And then people might think about the resale value (be it sensible or not). You may say it's non-sense but that's what people are really thinking about.

Not judging the value of RB/DB, just stating the facts.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

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