Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

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fxx
Posts: 105
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by fxx


TobinHatesYou wrote:
fxx wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:15 am

The more choices the manufacturers provide would mean the more market share the can garner. They need not do 2 formats of the same model but 2 different models of the 2 formats.

It is the smaller guys who cannot provide the wider choice who will suffer.


- Preserving rim brakes in the product line dilutes the message that disc brakes are better.
Better at what? Stopping, modulation, wet braking, yes!

But certainly not better in terms of weight and maintenence.

So it is not a win all the way for disc brakes.

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

fxx wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:30 am

Better at what? Stopping, modulation, wet braking, yes!

But certainly not better in terms of weight and maintenence.

So it is not a win all the way for disc brakes.

Better. That's the message the manufacturers want to deliver. It doesn't matter if there are some cons to disc brakes. Rim brakes are effectively branched off toward an evolutionary dead-end in high-end road bikes...the timeline for functional extinction is the only question.

by Weenie


fxx
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

by fxx


TobinHatesYou wrote:


Better. That's the message the manufacturers want to deliver. It doesn't matter if there are some cons to disc brakes. Rim brakes are effectively branched off toward an evolutionary dead-end in high-end road bikes...the timeline for functional extinction is the only question.
So the folks who buy high end road bikes do not know what is better for them and need to be told by manufacturers what is better and they are expected to accept.

Where I come from that is called "shoving it down your throat".

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

fxx wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:09 am

Where I come from that is called "shoving it down your throat".

Except in this case the masses are willing. If there was any real resistance to disc-brake adoption, the situation would never have unfolded like this. It's basically the fact that the rest of the bicycle industry has moved on along with a few key problems with rim brakes that weight heavily...carbon clinchers and tire clearance being chief among them.

fxx
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

by fxx

spdntrxi wrote:8ball says disc is the future... l777 it does not matter how many times you tell yourself it's not....it's not going back. The ship has sailed. Awful fat paint brush you are using on ppl that perfer disc BTW.
Strange but the folks here who are supporting disc brakes are the one using the awful fat paint brush approach.

They tell you that the ship has sailed and disc brakes are the future.

They tell you that disc brakes are just better without even considering the pros and cons of each or that there is even any merits for rim brakes.

They tell you that manufacturers need not develop multiple lines to cater to wider crowds.

They accuse anyone who has an alternative view as using an awful fat paint brush.

Very interesting indeed but I wonder why I am laughing my butt off LOL!

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

fxx wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:18 am
Strange but the folks here who are supporting disc brakes are the one using the awful fat paint brush approach.

They tell you that the ship has sailed and disc brakes are the future.

They tell you that disc brakes are just better without even considering the pros and cons of each or that there is even any merits for rim brakes.

They tell you that manufacturers need not develop multiple lines to cater to wider crowds.

They accuse anyone who has an alternative view as using an awful fat paint brush.

Very interesting indeed but I wonder why I am laughing my butt off LOL!

- The ship has sailed in the mainstream market. If you can't see that, then you truly are blinded by conviction. Answer me this, will more mainstream models from the big brands be going exclusively disc in 2020, 2021, 2022, etc. or do you think rim-brake models will be reintroduced?

- I'm saying that marketing will of course highlight disc advantages and not mention the cons. Don't corrupt that statement into something else....that's a snivelly tactic. I'm definitely not saying there are no cons at all.

- The brands aren't going to cater to 1) a dying category whose main target audience is 2) not getting any younger. The brands are going after the low-hanging fruit such as the women's market...you know, >50% of the world population, but <15% of the recreational cycling population. They're going after brand new customers, not old grumps who don't really know what they're demanding. Let's describe a hypothetical first-time road bike buyer. He is a 22 year-old who used a fitness/hybrid bike with discs to get from off-campus housing to his university classes in the past 4 years. Recently that hybrid got stolen and now he is thinking about a road bike as he considers riding for fun rather than transportation. His only other previous bike was a BMX/freestyle bike he rode in middle/high school. This guy isn't going to give a damn about rim brakes and there's going to be more of him and fewer of you from here on out.

- I'm not accusing you of anything other than being naive...and now lashing out like a cornered animal.

fxx
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

by fxx


TobinHatesYou wrote:


- The ship has sailed in the mainstream market. If you can't see that, then you truly are blinded by conviction. Answer me this, will more mainstream models from the big brands be going exclusively disc in 2020, 2021, 2022, etc. or do you think rim-brake models will be reintroduced?

- I'm saying that marketing will of course highlight disc advantages and not mention the cons. Don't corrupt that statement into something else....that's a snivelly tactic. I'm definitely not saying there are no cons at all.

- The brands aren't going to cater to 1) a dying category whose main target audience is 2) not getting any younger. The brands are going after the low-hanging fruit such as the women's market...you know, >50% of the world population, but <15% of the recreational cycling population. They're going after brand new customers, not old grumps who don't really know what they're demanding.

- I'm not accusing you of anything other than being naive...and now lashing out like a cornered animal.
Now when you get called out, do you come out to qualify that the ship which has sailed is from the mainstream markets, since when were the high end spandex wearing dentist types considered as the mainstream market? if you said the high end market, I would still give it to you but that market is certainly not mainstream.

You say that marketing only extols the virtues and not the cons of discs and that I have corrupted your statement, did I not ask directly how do you qualify disc brakes are better and the reply was simply that "they just are" aren't you implying that there was only one answer and no others, now who is using snivelly tactics?

Speaking of old grumps, when did you adopt hydro disc brakes on road bikes?

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RTW
in the industry
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by RTW

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:33 am
fxx wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:18 am
Strange but the folks here who are supporting disc brakes are the one using the awful fat paint brush approach.

They tell you that the ship has sailed and disc brakes are the future.

They tell you that disc brakes are just better without even considering the pros and cons of each or that there is even any merits for rim brakes.

They tell you that manufacturers need not develop multiple lines to cater to wider crowds.

They accuse anyone who has an alternative view as using an awful fat paint brush.

Very interesting indeed but I wonder why I am laughing my butt off LOL!

- The ship has sailed in the mainstream market. If you can't see that, then you truly are blinded by conviction. Answer me this, will more mainstream models from the big brands be going exclusively disc in 2020, 2021, 2022, etc. or do you think rim-brake models will be reintroduced?

- I'm saying that marketing will of course highlight disc advantages and not mention the cons. Don't corrupt that statement into something else....that's a snivelly tactic. I'm definitely not saying there are no cons at all.

- The brands aren't going to cater to 1) a dying category whose main target audience is 2) not getting any younger. The brands are going after the low-hanging fruit such as the women's market...you know, >50% of the world population, but <15% of the recreational cycling population. They're going after brand new customers, not old grumps who don't really know what they're demanding. Let's describe a hypothetical first-time road bike buyer. He is a 22 year-old who used a fitness/hybrid bike with discs to get from off-campus housing to his university classes in the past 4 years. Recently that hybrid got stolen and now he is thinking about a road bike as he considers riding for fun rather than transportation. His only other previous bike was a BMX/freestyle bike he rode in middle/high school. This guy isn't going to give a damn about rim brakes and there's going to be more of him and fewer of you from here on out.

- I'm not accusing you of anything other than being naive...and now lashing out like a cornered animal.
:beerchug: good post.
Your cycling kit is one size too big!

mattr
Posts: 4542
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:50 am
Except in this case the masses are willing.
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:50 am
Rim brakes are effectively branched off toward an evolutionary dead-end in high-end road bikes...
Can we have some consistency here please, is it the high end, or the mass market?
Two completely different things, with different requirements and different user demographics.

Or maybe it's just the manufacturers have pruned the high end rim brake branch too heavily and killed it off?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3280
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

fxx wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:10 am

Now when you get called out, do you come out to qualify that the ship which has sailed is from the mainstream markets, since when were the high end spandex wearing dentist types considered as the mainstream market? if you said the high end market, I would still give it to you but that market is certainly not mainstream.

You say that marketing only extols the virtues and not the cons of discs and that I have corrupted your statement, did I not ask directly how do you qualify disc brakes are better and the reply was simply that "they just are" aren't you implying that there was only one answer and no others, now who is using snivelly tactics?

Speaking of old grumps, when did you adopt hydro disc brakes on road bikes?
When I say mainstream market, I mean mainstream channels/brands/customers in general. This market has turned its cheek toward rim-brakes in the last couple years. Even in the instances where they initially did not, they have either backtracked or expressed regret. Trek has not sold enough rim-brake Madone SLRs to justify its existence. Pinarello saying high-end road bikes don't need discs 6 months before releasing the Dogma F10 Disk...

I will ask you again...Do you think rim-brake models will be reintroduced in coming years?

And no, when I said "they just are better," I was adopting the voice of the marketing department. Could you not see that?

I started riding road again in 2015. I bought a Frankenstein Ritchey Swiss Cross build with disc brakes to use for that purpose since road disc options were still limited. I converted it to an eTap build. I then bought an Emonda SLR Disc and now a Madone SLR Disc for racing. My next purchase will undoubtedly be a disc Speed Concept.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

mattr wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:23 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:50 am
Except in this case the masses are willing.
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:50 am
Rim brakes are effectively branched off toward an evolutionary dead-end in high-end road bikes...
Can we have some consistency here please, is it the high end, or the mass market?
Two completely different things, with different requirements and different user demographics.

Or maybe it's just the manufacturers have pruned the high end rim brake branch too heavily and killed it off?

These aren't exclusive statements and I only added resolution because rim-brakes have been functionally extinct in every branch other than the road bike market. High-end road is the last niche where some people actually seem to care...and it's a fading sentiment.

Mass adoption also both dictates trends in and includes the high-end market. Rim brakes aren't artisinal/aspirational. A low-wage earner doesn't covet a high-end rim-brake bike any more than a high-end disc-brake bike.

fxx
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

by fxx


TobinHatesYou wrote: These aren't exclusive statements and I only added resolution because rim-brakes have been functionally extinct in every branch other than the road bike market. High-end road is the last niche where some people actually seem to care...and it's a fading sentiment.
Wow you hit the nail on the head, have you asked the reason why the high end road market is the last niche holding out?

Let me tell you why, because they are the folks who would pay money so obscene that others would have to sell their kidneys for just to have the lightest most trick parts and frames, now you tell them that they have to put up with boat anchors just because it makes marketing and cost sense and then you lable it as a fading sentiment?

I think you are confusing the confiscation of freedom of choice with fading sentiment.

Wow suddenly the urge to laugh is hitting me again.

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Last edited by fxx on Wed May 15, 2019 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

ome rodriguez
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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:16 am

by ome rodriguez

70% of the peloton in giro d’ italia and tour of california still using rimbrakes.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3280
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

fxx wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:49 am

Wow you hit the nail on the head, have you asked the reason why the high end road market is the last niche holding out?

Let me tell you why, because they are the folks who would pay money so obscene that others would have to sell their kidneys for just to have the lightest most trick parts and frames, now you tell them that they have to put up with boat anchors just because it makes marketing and cost sense and then you lable it as a fading sentiment?

I think you are confusing the confiscation of freedom of choice with fading sentiment.

Wow suddenly the urge to laugh is hitting me again.

Those people are now paying obscene amounts of money for disc brake bikes. If the rim brakes were that desirable, they'd stick around by that virtue alone. The sales numbers aren't bearing this out.

fxx
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

by fxx

TobinHatesYou wrote: Those people are now paying obscene amounts of money for disc brake bikes. If the rim brakes were that desirable, they'd stick around by that virtue alone. The sales numbers aren't bearing this out.
I can agree with you that the higher end market will embrace discs first, but this market also consists of extreme weight weenies who will not be willing to go disc and still just go for pure light weight bikes, they are an important segment as well and should be catered for and not treated as a fading sentiment.

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by Weenie


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