Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

Sad how desperate and insecure people are to need to attack others as a group for having a differing opinion.
Why not start another forum called 'I don't care about the weight of my bike so long as it has the most modern marketing-driven tech on it weenies'. Then you'll can have your circle-jerk there. :lol:

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

Methodical wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:24 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:13 pm
Methodical wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:41 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:20 pm

Use disk brakes for a year and do over 10,000kms and live with them. Then try a day or two on direct mount brakes a treated alloy surface like DT Swiss Oxic or Campagnolo Shamal Mille and tell me that disk brakes are really worth all the extra weight and hassle. Fact is most people buying them have no clue, they are just being manipulated into buying what's new and shiny.
I'm not arguing with you. Like I said, I am still a rim brake guy. I love my disc brake on my MB though and would have it no other way.
...It's this 'many that are going with disc bikes' and 'If you can't beat them, join them' are sentiments of the person sleepwalking into a disaster. You openly prefer rim brakes on a road bike, but at the same time you'll capitulate and roll over to allow disk brakes to take over the market because you are influenced by what other people are riding and marketing. :roll:
Negative, son. :D

No rolling over and I've never cared about what anyone is riding; I do me. :unbelievable: I see you make tons of assumptions; shame. :unbelievable: You don't know me. If all the manufactuters discontinue rim brakes you can either improvise, adapt and overcome or stay where you are; that's your perogative and no one will care one way or the other because the world will keep spinning with you and without you. Like a chameleon, I can adapt to change and keep it moving because I can improvise, adapt and overcome; sounds like you can't. You don't manufacture bikes, so no one cares what you say or think about this and as long as buyers are ok with the new stuff, it won't matter what you think on the subject (it's really that simple, it really is). Now, if you decide to start manufacturing bikes, then you got something, unless that happens, it's all lip service, baby. Disc road bikes are here (riders obviously love them because they are scooping them up) and not going anywhere and it's no big deal in my life, well because I have a life and don't spend my time sweating the small stuff; yes this is teeny, tiny small crap that is not even on my life radar, why because I have a life. If you don't like disc bikes, then don't buy them. It's a very simple solution to what you see as a problem in this free world. At the end of the day, I have what I want on my road bikes and that's rim brakes.

Who loves you, baby? :wink:
You are influenced by marketing, but wait, you're not. You're way too cool or think you are. Baby? Huh?

by Weenie


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nickf
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by nickf

I have to say I have changed my mind a bit on the whole road disc debate. I have been riding my checkpoint exclusively for 3 weeks now in the mountains of North Carolina. Dry conditions. They give me a bit more confidence descending, no worries of blowing a latex tube on the way down especially if I get stuck behind a car and have to feather the brakes for a long period of time. Disc wheels have gotten competitive weight wise, 1350g 35mm x 28wide clincher. Frames and forks need to go on a diet though, which will come in time. On the flip side, the ONLY reason I have a Checkpoint with disc is for the tire clearance. I'm not about to run out and purchase a dedicated road disc bike. Disc bikes are unsightly on a road bike and in Florida, they are 100%, not necessary. Sure one can argue its a marketing push, its the next best thing, these manufacturers have to "innovate" to sell more stuff to pay the bills. Just don't buy it, easy. But even with that and me being a retro grouch I can see the appeal for road disc especially for anyone that lives is mountainous regions.

RTW
in the industry
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by RTW

This thread is comedy.

Manufacturers want economy of scale. Everything is moving towards disc and right now groupset, wheel and frame manufacturers are having to produce two versions of everything. They don’t want to. In the end it will be disc. Why? Because that’s what the R&D is now going into and is what the public are buying.

Pros being forced to ride disc bikes - it’s called sponsorship. It’s no different from them being forced to ride stock frames, and put really long and low stems on them.

Are discs progress? At the lower price points yes. 105 disc brakes better than 105 rim brake. And that’s where the bulk of the sales are, and where the advantages will be apparent. Pro cycling is a sales vehicle.
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ND4SPD
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by ND4SPD

Calnago wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:44 am
@ND4SPD: I’ll fully accept that correction. Thank you. I will say that adding simple hydraulics to my touring bike gave me that easy touch and one/two finger type braking that was not present with cables, and this is what I think can be shared by either rims or rotors as the braking surface. It’s the hydraulics that make it easy. But your point about the greater surface area of the disc pads is not lost on me and it’s a good one. However, even still... I just have not found any need for disc brakes on my finest road bikes. But that’s me. I’m happy to let others follow the industry trend. I think I’m jumping off the trend train at this point however.
Oh, and I understand all your points about the different pad compounds, which are more metallic on disc, and the metal rotors which are steel or alloy etc. Those are valid points for discs as well, but with all that metal comes the metallic noise which I loathe on a bicycle. The pinging, etc. I don’t know... my rim brakes are just fine, better than fine, excellent in fact and they don’t leave me wanting for anything more that adds complexity and weight.
Thank you for your post, I have enjoyed reading it :)

Hydraulics were not the point of my post, and I agree with you. And regarding hydraulics, why, oh, why, Shimano, Tektro, Magura and some others use mineral oil, when DOT fluid is so much better in every aspect... That is beyond me...

I had disc brake bicycle, Cannondale Synapse, and except when braking, I had no noises coming from the discs. Having said that, I have tried some Giant MTB (can't remember which model) and I had noises from discs, you had to apply brakes to stop the noise, and after a while the noise would come back, and you need to repeat the process again if you wanted to stop the noise from the brakes.

I currently have two rim brake bicycles... I'm riding only in fair weather, on one bike with aluminium wheels I don't have complaints, on the second, with carbon wheels, I would like better modulation, but I'm yet to experiment with different pads on that one...
robertbb wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:17 am
All those comparison videos are just rubbish.

They should either apply the scientific method properly (same brake force, same speed, same overall weight, same road angle and surface etc.) or not bother at all.

There are multiple rim manufacturers, multiple pad compounds, multiple rotor options...

Conclusions of shows like that are totally useless, totally misleading and totally designed to separate someone from their $.
I have to disagree with you.

In that particular video I have linked, you have two of the same bikes, two same groupsets, one is obviously with discs, and one with rim brakes, two of the same wheels, again one for disc brakes, one for rim brakes, two of the same tyres, and broadly similar weight of the riders in exactly the same conditions.
TheKaiser wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:51 am
While you are correct on many points, and I agree with you in spirit, if I understand you correctly I think you are off base with the statement that disc pads and rim pads have a "much, much" different surface area. Disc pads will tend to have less length (at least for your typical 2 piston road calipers), but greater height, than rim pads. The exact % difference between the 2 will vary by brand, but I would be comfortable saying that disc are well under 2x the surface area. That point aside, why do you think surface area is important? As I'm sure you know, the pressure/surface area/friction calcs scale such that even if disc has 25% more surface area, the friction will be the same due to the reduction in PSI (relative to the line pressure).
It's quite easy, just measure rim brake pad surface, then disc pad brake surface, and see for yourself :)

Regarding surface area, it's not just about thermal efficiency and heat dissipation, this picture describes it the best:

Image

If you want to read more on that subject:

https://www.docdroid.net/6u78mIT/discs.pdf
TheKaiser wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:51 am
Similarly, in regard to heat dissapation, how can you claim that a 120g rotor can best a 400g rim in thermal efficiency and heat dissapation? Even when you throw in the pads, the thermal mass of the rotor/pad combo is dwarfed by any road rim, as is surface area for heat shedding.

I think you are right about the ability of harder pads to bite through wetness on the braking surface, and also there is the fact that rims are down in the slop whereas rotors are elevated somewhere around 12"+ above the roadway, which radically reduces contamination.

My personal opinion, as someone with several disc braked bikes, is that rim brakes could be improved substantially. There are pros/cons to any system, but if one engineered a rim caliper/pad/rim surface that effectively dealt with wet conditions, I think that the downsides of rim could be dealt with easily, and the upsides in regard to frame/fork design, weight, etc...could outnumber the downsides.
Again rim and disc comparison, it's like comparing apples and oranges. And you forgot about thickness... I agree with higher point of discs on the bicycle, and I agree it reduces some contamination, but it's not like you are driving on your wheels without tyres...
TheKaiser wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:51 am
At this point in time, I'm not about to go descending some steep alpine roads on carbon clinchers with rim brakes, but I think with further effort it could be done with a robust system that rivals disc brakes.
Why? If you don't have 100+ kg, it's very. very unlikely you will overheat the brakes, or have inner tube explosion due to overheating (if you have inner tube)... I bet the odds are like getting struck by lightning...

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Calnago
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by Calnago

ND4SPD wrote:Hydraulics were not the point of my post, and I agree with you. And regarding hydraulics, why, oh, why, Shimano, Tektro, Magura and some others use mineral oil, when DOT fluid is so much better in every aspect... That is beyond me...
I’m just curious what is so bad about using mineral oil, at least in the application of hydraulics to bicycles. They aren’t race cars, and I’ve never had a problem with the mineral oil. Whereas the DOT fluid can be pretty nasty stuff to work with and has the potential to be unkind to paint finishes etc. It seems that by most accounts Campagnolo’s hydraulics work as well or better than any, although I’ve never had a chance to use them yet. They use mineral oil as well. I guess if it works just fine for disc brake applications in bicycles, why would you want to use something else with more potential harmful effects. I don’t know, I really haven’t thought too much about using DOT fluid other than for being glad I don’t have to.
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flying
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by flying

iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:15 am
It's really simple guys - it costs manufacturers a lot more money to have a supply line that makes both rim and disc brake options. You need more molds, more R&D, more inventory, etc.
Actually They already have everything as they were already building & selling Rim Brakes

It is the disc additions that they take the calculated risk on tooling up for.

That aside........I think both will be available longer than we are :wink:

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

RTW wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:02 am
Manufacturers want economy of scale. Everything is moving towards disc and right now groupset, wheel and frame manufacturers are having to produce two versions of everything. They don’t want to. In the end it will be disc. Why? Because that’s what the R&D is now going into and is what the public are buying.
Not true. They make up new types of bike every five minutes to increase N+1 sales. Aero bike? Enduro bike? Gravel bike? Roubaix bike? They can easily keep making rim brake bikes without incurring significant extra cost. Lots of experienced riders want direct mount brakes on their next frameset, some prefer disk, not really because they want it or need it because they think that's they way the market is going and don't want to get left behind - a fairly dumb reason - fashion.

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

8ball says disc is the future... l777 it does not matter how many times you tell yourself it's not....it's not going back. The ship has sailed. Awful fat paint brush you are using on ppl that perfer disc BTW.

fxx
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by fxx

spdntrxi wrote:8ball says disc is the future... l777 it does not matter how many times you tell yourself it's not....it's not going back. The ship has sailed. Awful fat paint brush you are using on ppl that perfer disc BTW.
Really? Ship has sailed? No manufacturer going to cater to the extreme weight weenie crowd?

Very sad isn't it?

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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

they might throw you a bone or two... but you already see many top "aero" bikes disc only. You will always have boutique builders as well. I have my eye on one more rim brake frame myself...but it's an older one so it will take some time to locate. I'm certainly not really interested in a current rim brake frame from any mfg.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

flying wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:03 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:15 am
It's really simple guys - it costs manufacturers a lot more money to have a supply line that makes both rim and disc brake options. You need more molds, more R&D, more inventory, etc.
Actually They already have everything as they were already building & selling Rim Brakes

It is the disc additions that they take the calculated risk on tooling up for.

That aside........I think both will be available longer than we are :wink:
If we are to stop development right now, yes you are correct. But as we know, new models are constantly being developed and coming out. So in order to support R&D and manufacturing and supply for both rim and disc, you need basically two entirely different processes given that disc frames are quite different from rim brakes. For example, you would need two different processes for aerodynamic testing for each new model in development.
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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

3d printing frames might save the rim brake line.... no molds. keep you fingers crossed they are not dead by then.

fxx
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by fxx

iheartbianchi wrote:
flying wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:03 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:15 am
It's really simple guys - it costs manufacturers a lot more money to have a supply line that makes both rim and disc brake options. You need more molds, more R&D, more inventory, etc.
Actually They already have everything as they were already building & selling Rim Brakes

It is the disc additions that they take the calculated risk on tooling up for.

That aside........I think both will be available longer than we are :wink:
If we are to stop development right now, yes you are correct. But as we know, new models are constantly being developed and coming out. So in order to support R&D and manufacturing and supply for both rim and disc, you need basically two entirely different processes given that disc frames are quite different from rim brakes. For example, you would need two different processes for aerodynamic testing for each new model in development.
The more choices the manufacturers provide would mean the more market share the can garner. They need not do 2 formats of the same model but 2 different models of the 2 formats.

It is the smaller guys who cannot provide the wider choice who will suffer.

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

fxx wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:15 am

The more choices the manufacturers provide would mean the more market share the can garner. They need not do 2 formats of the same model but 2 different models of the 2 formats.

It is the smaller guys who cannot provide the wider choice who will suffer.


- Preserving rim brakes in the product line dilutes the message that disc brakes are better.
- Having two completely different models of all-rounder and aero only serves to confuse potential customers.
- Rim-brake bikes are a shrinking market. Lewn777 can rattle off the fact that manufacturers are willing to pump out endurance bikes (why he is calling them Roubaix bikes I don't know,) gravel bikes, enduro bikes, etc., but the fact is those segments with disc brakes are either growing or at least maintaining the status quo.
- Smaller guys actually have way more freedom to do things "the hard way" because everything they do is "the hard way." It's already baked into their overhead. They don't do massive volume regardless of the technology so the market forces aren't as significant.

by Weenie


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