Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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ND4SPD
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Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 4:10 am

by ND4SPD

Lewn777 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:34 am
I don't see any evidence provided by you that for bicycles DOT fluid is better than mineral oil from evidence based written sources or from your personal experience. All I can see is opinionated bais from why DOT fluid is better based on it being used in motorized vehicles, of someone that wants to get in an argument for arguments sake arguing black is white or has bought into a DOT fluid system on their bike and is trying to prove their purchase was the right one.
Search my previous posts on this thread, regarding DOT fluid vs. mineral fluid, and you will find enough facts to make crystal clear to everyone that DOT fluid is better. If you still don't get it, then I can't help you.

Currently I have two rim brake bicycles.

Now really EOD for me.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

ND4SPD wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 4:54 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:34 am
I don't see any evidence provided by you that for bicycles DOT fluid is better than mineral oil from evidence based written sources or from your personal experience. All I can see is opinionated bais from why DOT fluid is better based on it being used in motorized vehicles, of someone that wants to get in an argument for arguments sake arguing black is white or has bought into a DOT fluid system on their bike and is trying to prove their purchase was the right one.
Search my previous posts on this thread, regarding DOT fluid vs. mineral fluid, and you will find enough facts to make crystal clear to everyone that DOT fluid is better. If you still don't get it, then I can't help you.

Currently I have two rim brake bicycles.

Now really EOD for me.
You've made it crystal clear why you think DOT is better, half of it made up bollocks and the other half why it's better for large vehicles which is then totally irrelevent for the application of bicycles.

What's worse is that you seem to have ZERO experience of either riding or working on any kind of disk brake bicycle with either system, arguing the toss for the sake of it with someone that has 20 years riding and wrenching on mototcycles, MTB and road bikes. Based on some wikipedia entry that you read five minutes ago.

EOD

by Weenie


3Pio
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

flying wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:07 pm
3Pio wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:16 am

Sorry for long post :) I just finished my morning Cappuccino, will finish this post as well :)
It is all good :thumbup:

I feel pretty much exactly the same & it could just be that we have ridden for so long & we have seen so many things go
through many ultimately useless stages/trends. But it is fine for those that want to chase it & fine that it is available for them.


But in the end it is when you said......
This days most of the time i ride on my Alloy Caad12 bike, rim brakes... After i adjusted position, i realize that im not slower vs my C60.
That made me smile. Because in the end many of us get to a point that we do realize something & it may not even be about the bike :wink:

There is local guys here, who based of marketing and fashion change the bikes/equipment without even havng a chance to adjust them self properly and to really test ride what they bought :).. Or there is one guy who bought 2 sizes smaller C60 but in same time he comment how C60 is so good.. 3 years ago when i was buying mine :), he bought V1-R instead of C60 (they were same price where he bought it and i was recommend him C60 then), just becase C60 was not that Aero, and Aero is big thing... :)

Now the same guy got second hand 2 size smaller C60 (sold V1-R since in meanwhile is not that Aero anymore, and bought Dogma F10 which is More Aero, More Compliant :) But in same time have a tower of spacers and wide handlebar :) ) , and he claim how is best bike (this new second hand 2 size smaller C60 and even he never actually tried), but in meanwhile i guess he read it some new marketing...... Plenty of this kind of examples..

I Admit, that i was (and probably still i am) victim of fashion and marketing... But u actually enjoy all sport when u stop feeling anxionity of not having the latest things, and actually enjoy the nature, the ride....

It was similar in my other hobby.. HiFi.. :) I was spending fortune of money getting new things, new cables, spikes, bla bla bla.. And realized that for few years im actually listening test CD''s instead of music :) .. I realized that i have really nice setup, and decide to stop buying Magazines, stopped going to HiFi shop where i was living for a while... :) And somehow i realized in that moment i start listening Music, discovering new artist, new albums (the whole point of having nice HiFi )

And i decide to do this way:

1. Find a unknow CD or Artist

2. Listen for it

3. If i got goose bumps or my leg is jumping in the rhythm, seem that i like it

4. If i like it listen for it for a while.. For few days..

5. Then few more albums from same artist...

6. Find the Artist on FB, and share with him that u like that album or work (99% of them was replying and i realized that they like that feedback)

7. After all this eventually read reviews, read what critics have to say about that CD (if at all any review for some of them)


Oh.. Just finished my Morning Cappuccino... :) and my CD for this morning... :)

3Pio
Posts: 1155
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

spdntrxi wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:59 pm
3Pio wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:16 am

Is all this Aero, Disks thing Marketing? Yeeeess :)

And funny how many peoples who'll spend ton of money for having "latest, fastest" have a BIAS about it after that how that is the only way, and how is really biggest upgrade... .. But i dont have anything against it.. As soon as that make u want to ride more often, to really ride and not just for show up.. In that way AERO and Disks will make u faster.. More often u ride, u become fitter and faster :)

The most funny thing for me about AERO, is when i see someone riding the latest Aero bike, but have wide handlebar and tower of spacers under the stem..

Here, guys who switched to Disks, after spending ton of money... Cant see they become faster or mor stable on Downhills, but can see how some of them are not happy having brake rub, and having to replace brake pads often and all the maintence which they dont had with Rim Brakes.. :)
-marketing ? somewhat agree but for me lots of advantages. Same goes for Di2... my hands and fingers go numb(not a fit issue), Di2 and hydro disk allow me to ride longer and feel less pain over the long haul. That alone is worth gold to me as I age.

- I have 20mm of spacers on my aero bike.. dont know if that is a "tower" or not.. but it's 5mm lower then I could acheive on the next frame size up, so whatcha gonna do? Bar are 40cm wide.. so not wide.

- I spend a ton of money on rim brakes bikes too.. I am no doubt faster on downhills, set strava PR's with little to no effort. Stability ? no improvement there for me (it's the same) . So far my road bike has been pretty noise free, my gravel bike I get the temporary rub when I heat them up on some sketchy downhills in the dirt. The maintence is pretty even, because when I had rim brake bikes only, all the rims had slightly different widths that would cause me to have to adjust them anyways. Sometimes with disc I get lucky, swap wheels and go but about 50% of the time... I'm centering the calipers which is a pretty quick procedure.
Ur body have the biggest surface exposed to Wind.. Frameset is just small percent.. Lower u go, narrower u go, less frontal area exposed to wind, more aero....



About Di2, and mechanical groupset.. I ride on both my bikes Campagnolo Record Mechanical and Rim Brakes... I dont know how long rides u have, but this season i allready have few >200 km rides..

One of them even on "harsh alloy CAAD12, with alloy handlebar (i had Carbon handlebar here, but decide to test alloy Deda Zero100"....

I never ever have any numb issues because of using Mechanical gearing.. Really working very smooth... But i had numbs having wront riding position.. So invest ur money in proper fit vs electric groupset, and im sure numbness will be gone...

Why to complicate things using Di2 or similar? Why to have another device for charging, why to have another thing which if something goes wrong in middle of that 200 km ride i wont be able to fix it as simple as mechanical? Why to have more weight? Why to spend more money vs mechanicla and not invest that money in some nice riding days or maybe new tires or something?

Regarding changing the wheelset.. I have Bora 50 and 35 tubs.. Same width.. So u guess how fast is my changing procedure... Imagine that i have disk frameset and disk version of Bora 50 and 35.. Will i have the same success in swapping the wheelset as i have now?

But again.. As soon those new things make u wanting to ride (and not lusting for new trends, fashion) , then everything perfect.. Just go and ride them... Do u know how i calculate the value of thngs i have now? I spend some money on something.. And i calculate per usage.. As much i use it, cost per usage is lower....

If u get a expensive bike, lets' say 10000 eur.. And u use it once... It cost u 10000 eur per usage.. Very expensive.. Better to rent in that case.. But if u use that bike 1000 times, then same bike cost u 10 eur per usage and it's not that expensive anymore. U are getting idea :)

So go just ride it as much as possible, and lower the price per usage :)

ichobi
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

This is less and less about the merit or demerit of disc brakes. You can say all of those with every smart phones or gadgets or what have you ever released. I still use an iPhone 6. Doesn’t mean the new one is not better and simply marketing. Are you conflating utility and personal enjoyment with technological improvement?

Bike can be enjoyed in many ways, riding them, hanging them on the wall, collecting dust, hanging clothes over them. Who are we to judge how it is being used? I have many rich friends who enjoy buying new stuff even though they would never ride that bike. Cant false them for that. They are happy, and I am happy to see them happy.

Sure not all new things are considered tech improvement. Disc brakes on road are still debatable, but will it perhaps lead to something better? May be, could be. It definitely works well for many people. It might not for a lot of people as well. Just like I dont find utility in iPhone 10. The point is everyone has a choice and you can vote with your money. Something you choose not to vote for might not be necessarily simply marketing.

But if all investment in tech goes disc’s way then definitely something better will come out of it. Electronic gearing is definitely an improvement (for many, but may be not all). I wouldn’t go back to routing gear cable again after I used eTap. That is simply how technology progresses. you can take it or leave it ( and i still prefer rim brake bike). If we call everything new simply marketing just because it doesn’t fit our definition of good then we would still be living in cave.

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Lewn777
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

ichobi wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 11:48 am
This is less and less about the merit or demerit of disc brakes. You can say all of those with every smart phones or gadgets or what have you ever released. I still use an iPhone 6. Doesn’t mean the new one is not better and simply marketing. Are you conflating utility and personal enjoyment with technological improvement?

Bike can be enjoyed in many ways, riding them, hanging them on the wall, collecting dust, hanging clothes over them. Who are we to judge how it is being used? I have many rich friends who enjoy buying new stuff even though they would never ride that bike. Cant false them for that. They are happy, and I am happy to see them happy.

Sure not all new things are considered tech improvement. Disc brakes on road are still debatable, but will it perhaps lead to something better? May be, could be. It definitely works well for many people. It might not for a lot of people as well. Just like I dont find utility in iPhone 10. The point is everyone has a choice and you can vote with your money. Something you choose not to vote for might not be necessarily simply marketing.

But if all investment in tech goes disc’s way then definitely something better will come out of it. Electronic gearing is definitely an improvement (for many, but may be not all). I wouldn’t go back to routing gear cable again after I used eTap. That is simply how technology progresses. you can take it or leave it ( and i still prefer rim brake bike). If we call everything new simply marketing just because it doesn’t fit our definition of good then we would still be living in cave.
The worry is that the manufacturers are jumping the gun, like they did by going from 26-27.5 wheelsizes, like software developers pre-release a beta version of something.

The problem is current disk brakes are simply mountain bike brakes on the road - a rush release. The fear of missing the boat and being out of fashion is a self perpetuating thing.

I'm sure in the end disk brakes will work much better and all the compatibility and weight issues will be fixed with the newer generations in a few years time. But at the moment the improvement seems very marginal compared with the hassle and throw-away culture involved in changing an entire bike for almost no worthwhile reason.

Tubeless and electronic shifting are much better than disk brakes, you can so easily chose to adopt or not, whereas disk brakes require a whole new bike.

ichobi
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

Agreed, The MTB wheel sizes is definitely a very good example. And it's a good thing that there are manufacturer that still produce new rim brake bike. Trek at least still
make the rim brake latest Madone. But do we see it like the disimissal of headphone jack or the new laptop that no longer comes with CD/DVD drive? I am sure the case is not as clear cut in the bike business since rim brake still works well whilst nobody really needs CD/DVD anymore (may be the cd and dvd collectors will debate this point, but they can always buy an external dvd player?).

ND4SPD
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 4:10 am

by ND4SPD

Lewn777 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:58 am
You've made it crystal clear why you think DOT is better, half of it made up bollocks and the other half why it's better for large vehicles which is then totally irrelevent for the application of bicycles.

What's worse is that you seem to have ZERO experience of either riding or working on any kind of disk brake bicycle with either system, arguing the toss for the sake of it with someone that has 20 years riding and wrenching on mototcycles, MTB and road bikes. Based on some wikipedia entry that you read five minutes ago.

EOD
Argumentum ad hominem and other fallacious argumentative "strategies"does not make your posts/statements correct/true, quite the contrary.

EOD.

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Gunnar
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 6:03 am

by Gunnar

Surprised nobody has posted this here


I have noticed a lot of people saying old people just don't get disc brakes, yadda yadda, disc brakes are for younger riders... I'm a 22 year old who just got into road cycling, and own 3 mountain bikes with disc brakes. There is no way in hell I will ever ride a road bike with discs, I experienced brake fade while riding one of my disc MTBs on the road and for those who have never experienced it, it is truly terrifying. I had no brake power at all and was flying down a hill going 45mph, only way I was able to stop was by putting my feet on the ground to slow myself a bit and eventually hopping over a curb to crash into some bushes (neither of which I could have done on a road bike with cleats on). Sure, if you know how to ride them you won't likely experience brake fade, but whos telling buyers not to pad their brakes during long descents? I knew about the issue before it happened to me anyways, even experienced riders who know can have careless moments.

I personally think putting disc brakes on road bikes is idiotic cause most buyers have no idea what they are getting into and the risks of brake fade during long descents is very high (I have read several articles on disc brake fade related deaths even), not only that but I cannot see any benefit to them unless you are riding in the rain which is really the only situation where they offer any improvement. The complexity of them is unnecessary, there's way more that can go wrong with them, they weigh more, and they require more maintenance.

Disc brakes are nothing more than an attempt to add something new to the market. From a manufacturers perspective they are great, new foks, new frame, new wheels, new groupset, its forced obsolescence, you pretty much have to buy a new bike to run them. Sure they look trendy and feel good, count me out though.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3321
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by TobinHatesYou

So disc brakes will kill us. Thanks for your balanced PoV and linking quality durianrider content.

I have never experienced brake fade from brake fluid boiling. I have experienced slight "fade" from resin pads getting very hot, but all that amounted to was a slight reduction in brake power. No Flintstones braking required. You haven't given us any other information. How do we know if the following are true or false?

1) Your brakes are bled properly.
2) Your pads are in good shape.
3) You descend without excessively dragging your brakes.
4) Any number of other things.

We can all make rim brakes fail too.

More to the point. I literally climbed Mt. Hamilton 13 hours ago and descended the even more technical backside. No brake fade. I have descended the frontside of Hamilton a couple dozen times and Quimby a couple times. No brake fade. Hoehn descended the exact same road much more smoothly, on discs. No brake fade. So did numerous others in the peloton that day. Nobody died.

Don't excuse Cavagna's poor descending technique. What's next, blaming Ilnur Zakarin's descending on disc brakes?

ichobi
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by ichobi

Durianrider is talking out of his arse. It wasnt even a faded brake. The guy just couldnt descent.

mattr
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by mattr

Gunnar wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:31 am
Surprised nobody has posted this here
Because Durianrider is a pointless dick. With a very dubious past (and present).

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

mattr wrote:
Gunnar wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:31 am
Surprised nobody has posted this here
Because Durianrider is a pointles dick. With a very dubious past (and present).
http://anthonycolpo.com/wp-content/uplo ... cision.pdf

Pretty much sums him up

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micky
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by micky

What he said.

mattr
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by mattr

This whole DoT/mineral oil argument is hilarious.

In a well maintained system there is nothing between them.
In a workshop environment, service/bleed/looking after and so on, there is nothing between them. (You need to be careful/methodical and clean up after yourself properly either way.)

The differences only come to light when you treat them badly, or don't maintain them. Or are incapable of weilding a spanner and a rag with the requisite level of skill (quite low really).

20+ years of working on and/or designing/analysing hydraulic systems, mineral and DoT filled (and other stuff you *really* don't want to service youself!).

by Weenie


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