Some manufacturers forcing pros onto disk brakes for the 2019 season

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Lewn777 lashing out again...I am shocked. All I said was SRAM uses two syringes in its bleed process, and that allows for the degassing procedure. My personal preferences do not matter here because bleeding brakes is so infrequent.

by Weenie


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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

You come on to a thread to put another person down, because in your god-like opinion they're wrong, offering absolutely zero relevant or constructive information, and then you wonder why you're not warmly recieved? Duh. :roll:

For the record I HAD to de-gas DOT fluid to make Avid brakes work. It may not be in the handbook, and it may be far easier now (not that you're ever going to paint an honest un-airbrushed version of anything you own). This was as I've already just written about 10 years ago, working on my best friends Avid Juicy 5 brakes. We bled them with brand new DOT fluid from a sealed container but we kept getting soft levers. The design of the reservoirs were poor they were very small and angled weirdly (plenty of other people on web forums agreed that the design was a bit flawed), loads of bubbles kept getting trapped in the system and we were getting intermitent soft levers. I read somewhere that degassing could help in this case, and actually it only takes 5 minutes to do, your fluid will work better as a result and it largely fixed our immediate problem after a night with the levers strapped down. YMMV.

You put-down other people's personal experience based on hand-book theory and hardly any experience. Very weak.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

I did have to laugh at the Eurosport commentary last night stating the brake squeal was from disc brakes... When it was 3 rim brake bikes in shot....

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

3Pio wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:09 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:41 am
3Pio wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:25 am
fxx wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:24 am
Asian cyclists seldom want disc because the riders are light around 60 kgs so they feel that disc brakes are unnecessary.

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Im not Asian, not that light (74 kg at a moment), riding plenty of hills on carbon tubulars... And feel that disc brakes are unnecessary, and just marketing gimmick for road bike.. And no, really dont feel that need stronger brakes even in wet and even im surrounded with mountains (grades from 5% to 20%)
I ride hills all day (cat 2, 3 and 4) and I weigh 76kg and have coated alloy rim brakes and I don't feel I need disk brakes either. But I'm sure you already knew that! I ride disk brake bikes every day, they're on my commuting bikes, so it's not as if I don't know what I'm missing. :thumbup:
I just get back from XC MTB Ride (i havent riden MTB for maybe2 years), 92 km, and 2500 climb 90% off road.... And i have disk on my MTB (Magura Marta SL), which i have it since 2008 (Specialized Epic Marathon Carbon..)

If i told u that even on MTB i really liked XTR V-Brakes i had on bike before this (i was using Kool Stop brake pads then), but ok.. Let's say that on MTB Disk's are ok.. But on road.. Definetely not need them at all... BTW, guess what MTB wheelset size im riding? :)
Hmm, 26inch (that actually measure about 26.5 inch?) :D

3Pio
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by 3Pio

Lewn777 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:48 am
3Pio wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:09 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:41 am
3Pio wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:25 am


Im not Asian, not that light (74 kg at a moment), riding plenty of hills on carbon tubulars... And feel that disc brakes are unnecessary, and just marketing gimmick for road bike.. And no, really dont feel that need stronger brakes even in wet and even im surrounded with mountains (grades from 5% to 20%)
I ride hills all day (cat 2, 3 and 4) and I weigh 76kg and have coated alloy rim brakes and I don't feel I need disk brakes either. But I'm sure you already knew that! I ride disk brake bikes every day, they're on my commuting bikes, so it's not as if I don't know what I'm missing. Image
I just get back from XC MTB Ride (i havent riden MTB for maybe2 years), 92 km, and 2500 climb 90% off road.... And i have disk on my MTB (Magura Marta SL), which i have it since 2008 (Specialized Epic Marathon Carbon..)

If i told u that even on MTB i really liked XTR V-Brakes i had on bike before this (i was using Kool Stop brake pads then), but ok.. Let's say that on MTB Disk's are ok.. But on road.. Definetely not need them at all... BTW, guess what MTB wheelset size im riding? :)
Hmm, 26inch (that actually measure about 26.5 inch?) :D

Correct.. :) And guess what? I was not slower, im even in first 10 on few segments (UpHill)...

Going downhill im not fast, but it's not because of wheels size :) (but i rode it all without need to be off bike)

When this madness was happening to MTB, i had a chance to test ride the "new biggest thing: 29", and realized that i can live perfectly with my Specialized Epic 26"... And when 26" started to be: "Really bad, slow, how u can ride MTB XC on 26".... Two years ago i upgraded the wheelset, and bought a brand new Mavic CrossMax for Peanuts, instead of selling my bike for Peanuts and to buy new 29", and after a while new 27.5" ....

Lets get back to road bike and disks... It's just marketing this days.. Fashion.. Industry want u to spend money buying new things, put u to believe in "AERO Framesets..."... Switching to disk is great way to make u buying new wheels, new frames, new everything (things that u dont need it, and maybe urs that u allready have are better in reality..."

There is local guy who have Specialized Tarmac S-Works Durace and Disks, and now he is thinking to sell it, and buy a new Venge.. (even on most of the rides there is climbs...).. That's how marketing works.. U lusting for something "great, new big thing..." When u buy it, instead of enjoying, lusting for something else which just become a bit better then what u have...

This days most of the time i ride on my Alloy Caad12 bike, rim brakes... After i adjusted position, i realize that im not slower vs my C60.. And in one way i must admit i built this bike against what is fashion this days (Not Carbon, Not Aero, No disks, but lightweight, and no expensive frameset.)

Am i enjoying even it's not that modern? :) A lot... :) More then 2500 km since i build it in January (i have 50% on Caad12, 50% on C60)..

Did i lust for disk/aero (even i have avg about 12000 m climb per month).. Absolutely not.. But lusting for rides that i havent ride them yet, and want to ride them...

Am i slower then the guys who switched to Aero or Disks? Nooooo.. Did they become faster doing that? Nooooo

Is all this Aero, Disks thing Marketing? Yeeeess :)

And funny how many peoples who'll spend ton of money for having "latest, fastest" have a BIAS about it after that how that is the only way, and how is really biggest upgrade... .. But i dont have anything against it.. As soon as that make u want to ride more often, to really ride and not just for show up.. In that way AERO and Disks will make u faster.. More often u ride, u become fitter and faster :)

The most funny thing for me about AERO, is when i see someone riding the latest Aero bike, but have wide handlebar and tower of spacers under the stem..

Here, guys who switched to Disks, after spending ton of money... Cant see they become faster or mor stable on Downhills, but can see how some of them are not happy having brake rub, and having to replace brake pads often and all the maintence which they dont had with Rim Brakes.. :)


Sorry for long post :) I just finished my morning Cappuccino, will finish this post as well :)

But will share few pics from my Old Fashined ride from yesterday :), maybe u'll enjoy them while drinking ur Cappuccino.... :), and maybe will make someone who dont have latest disks, most aero, or whatever industry tell u that is best, to actually enjoy the ride, not marketing claims....

p.s. The Fox came to check my Fox Suspension.. And it's working flawless, even 11 years old :)



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Lewn777
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

3Pio wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:16 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:48 am
3Pio wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:09 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:41 am

I ride hills all day (cat 2, 3 and 4) and I weigh 76kg and have coated alloy rim brakes and I don't feel I need disk brakes either. But I'm sure you already knew that! I ride disk brake bikes every day, they're on my commuting bikes, so it's not as if I don't know what I'm missing. Image
I just get back from XC MTB Ride (i havent riden MTB for maybe2 years), 92 km, and 2500 climb 90% off road.... And i have disk on my MTB (Magura Marta SL), which i have it since 2008 (Specialized Epic Marathon Carbon..)

If i told u that even on MTB i really liked XTR V-Brakes i had on bike before this (i was using Kool Stop brake pads then), but ok.. Let's say that on MTB Disk's are ok.. But on road.. Definetely not need them at all... BTW, guess what MTB wheelset size im riding? :)
Hmm, 26inch (that actually measure about 26.5 inch?) :D

Correct.. :) And guess what? I was not slower, im even in first 10 on few segments (UpHill)...

Going downhill im not fast, but it's not because of wheels size :) (but i rode it all without need to be off bike)

When this madness was happening to MTB, i had a chance to test ride the "new biggest thing: 29", and realized that i can live perfectly with my Specialized Epic 26"... And when 26" started to be: "Really bad, slow, how u can ride MTB XC on 26".... Two years ago i upgraded the wheelset, and bought a brand new Mavic CrossMax for Peanuts, instead of selling my bike for Peanuts and to buy new 29", and after a while new 27.5" ....

Lets get back to road bike and disks... It's just marketing this days.. Fashion.. Industry want u to spend money buying new things, put u to believe in "AERO Framesets..."... Switching to disk is great way to make u buying new wheels, new frames, new everything (things that u dont need it, and maybe urs that u allready have are better in reality..."

There is local guy who have Specialized Tarmac S-Works Durace and Disks, and now he is thinking to sell it, and buy a new Venge.. (even on most of the rides there is climbs...).. That's how marketing works.. U lusting for something "great, new big thing..." When u buy it, instead of enjoying, lusting for something else which just become a bit better then what u have...

This days most of the time i ride on my Alloy Caad12 bike, rim brakes... After i adjusted position, i realize that im not slower vs my C60.. And in one way i must admit i built this bike against what is fashion this days (Not Carbon, Not Aero, No disks, but lightweight, and no expensive frameset.)

Am i enjoying even it's not that modern? :) A lot... :) More then 2500 km since i build it in January (i have 50% on Caad12, 50% on C60)..

Did i lust for disk/aero (even i have avg about 12000 m climb per month).. Absolutely not.. But lusting for rides that i havent ride them yet, and want to ride them...

Am i slower then the guys who switched to Aero or Disks? Nooooo.. Did they become faster doing that? Nooooo

Is all this Aero, Disks thing Marketing? Yeeeess :)

And funny how many peoples who'll spend ton of money for having "latest, fastest" have a BIAS about it after that how that is the only way, and how is really biggest upgrade... .. But i dont have anything against it.. As soon as that make u want to ride more often, to really ride and not just for show up.. In that way AERO and Disks will make u faster.. More often u ride, u become fitter and faster :)

The most funny thing for me about AERO, is when i see someone riding the latest Aero bike, but have wide handlebar and tower of spacers under the stem..

Here, guys who switched to Disks, after spending ton of money... Cant see they become faster or mor stable on Downhills, but can see how some of them are not happy having brake rub, and having to replace brake pads often and all the maintence which they dont had with Rim Brakes.. :)


Sorry for long post :) I just finished my morning Cappuccino, will finish this post as well :)

But will share few pics from my Old Fashined ride from yesterday :), maybe u'll enjoy them while drinking ur Cappuccino.... :), and maybe will make someone who dont have latest disks, most aero, or whatever industry tell u that is best, to actually enjoy the ride, not marketing claims....

p.s. The Fox came to check my Fox Suspension.. And it's working flawless, even 11 years old :)



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Tame fox? Beautiful nature, where is this? Looks fantastic.

I always wanted a MTB with a 29er front and 27.5 or 26 rear or 27.5 front wheel 26 inch rear, but it was a deeply unpopular idea and not UCI legal. Fast forward to now. What's the biggest thing in DH MTB in 2019? You guessed it 29er front and 27.5 rear UCI have just legalized it. :roll:

We have to go through all this half-baked design, manufacture and marketing then the finally figure it out years later. Why they couldn't have done proper R&D 10 years ago we could have avoided all the expense, land-fill and marketing fashionista bs.

Jugi
Posts: 539
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:10 am

by Jugi

There is a saying in my country, that we’re dull and miserable people in general and the only thing making us immediately feel better is seeing a fellow man be even more miserable.

I feel much better. Thank you.

flying
Posts: 1931
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am

by flying

3Pio wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:16 am

Sorry for long post :) I just finished my morning Cappuccino, will finish this post as well :)
It is all good :thumbup:

I feel pretty much exactly the same & it could just be that we have ridden for so long & we have seen so many things go
through many ultimately useless stages/trends. But it is fine for those that want to chase it & fine that it is available for them.


But in the end it is when you said......
This days most of the time i ride on my Alloy Caad12 bike, rim brakes... After i adjusted position, i realize that im not slower vs my C60.
That made me smile. Because in the end many of us get to a point that we do realize something & it may not even be about the bike :wink:

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Lewn777
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

flying wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:07 pm
3Pio wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:16 am

Sorry for long post :) I just finished my morning Cappuccino, will finish this post as well :)
It is all good :thumbup:

I feel pretty much exactly the same & it could just be that we have ridden for so long & we have seen so many things go
through many ultimately useless stages/trends. But it is fine for those that want to chase it & fine that it is available for them.


But in the end it is when you said......
This days most of the time i ride on my Alloy Caad12 bike, rim brakes... After i adjusted position, i realize that im not slower vs my C60.
That made me smile. Because in the end many of us get to a point that we do realize something & it may not even be about the bike :wink:
Agreed, I would recommend that anyone new to the sport buy a rim brake CAAD12, put some high-end alloy wheels on it and honestly stop worrying about buying anything more bling, you won't get any quicker, just enjoy the ride. :beerchug:

spdntrxi
Posts: 3113
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

3Pio wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:16 am

Is all this Aero, Disks thing Marketing? Yeeeess :)

And funny how many peoples who'll spend ton of money for having "latest, fastest" have a BIAS about it after that how that is the only way, and how is really biggest upgrade... .. But i dont have anything against it.. As soon as that make u want to ride more often, to really ride and not just for show up.. In that way AERO and Disks will make u faster.. More often u ride, u become fitter and faster :)

The most funny thing for me about AERO, is when i see someone riding the latest Aero bike, but have wide handlebar and tower of spacers under the stem..

Here, guys who switched to Disks, after spending ton of money... Cant see they become faster or mor stable on Downhills, but can see how some of them are not happy having brake rub, and having to replace brake pads often and all the maintence which they dont had with Rim Brakes.. :)
-marketing ? somewhat agree but for me lots of advantages. Same goes for Di2... my hands and fingers go numb(not a fit issue), Di2 and hydro disk allow me to ride longer and feel less pain over the long haul. That alone is worth gold to me as I age.

- I have 20mm of spacers on my aero bike.. dont know if that is a "tower" or not.. but it's 5mm lower then I could acheive on the next frame size up, so whatcha gonna do? Bar are 40cm wide.. so not wide.

- I spend a ton of money on rim brakes bikes too.. I am no doubt faster on downhills, set strava PR's with little to no effort. Stability ? no improvement there for me (it's the same) . So far my road bike has been pretty noise free, my gravel bike I get the temporary rub when I heat them up on some sketchy downhills in the dirt. The maintence is pretty even, because when I had rim brake bikes only, all the rims had slightly different widths that would cause me to have to adjust them anyways. Sometimes with disc I get lucky, swap wheels and go but about 50% of the time... I'm centering the calipers which is a pretty quick procedure.

ND4SPD
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 4:10 am

by ND4SPD

Lewn777 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:42 am
It could be a problem with mineral based systems if there was any moisture in the system. Only it's never really been reported and I've never seen it so you can go on and on about this being a 'problem' with mineral oil, but it's completely a non issue. I really don't see how moisture is ever going to enter a sealed system from below, more likely it would condense from the air in the reservoir and how the hell it would make it down to the caliper I have no clue. It's not a jam jar in an elementary school experiment.
You could say that for any brake system, either with DOT fluid or mineral oil, that moisture can't enter the system. But it will, sooner or later :)
Lewn777 wrote:These days SRAM have probably ironed out the deafening dry warbles, the even louder wet disk warbles, the gas bubbles trapped in the tiny reservoir causing the dead levers and needing to de-gas the fluid because of it, then leaving the levers strapped overnight to get rid of yet more bubbles trapped around pockets around the calipers and the need to spend hours tap-tatting on the cables and calipers. I came to the conclusion that DOT fluid was totally wrong for the application of bicycle brakes. That was what I had to do with Avid Juicy brakes ten years ago to make them work on my mates bike, they were garbage, but the newer generations of SRAM brakes are probably much better. :thumbup:
You have answered that for yourself it the next post:
Lewn777 wrote:The design of the reservoirs were poor they were very small and angled weirdly (plenty of other people on web forums agreed that the design was a bit flawed), loads of bubbles kept getting trapped in the system and we were getting intermitent soft levers.
:)

Like someone said, Avid is spelled wrong, there should be an 'O' in there. :mrgreen:
Lewn777 wrote:Why you need to go on the internet to attack mineral oil options that work perfectly well, are environmetally friendlier and in fact are the more trustworthy and more reliable market options is beyond me. Maybe you're yet another post purchase rationalization baby that's bought SRAM and needs to crybully over their choice being the cleverest choice to ensure that they've made the best choice.

Fact is SRAM shifting is excellent, their newer disk brakes are proabably very good. But also Shimano and Camapgnolo are excellent choices too. Why you feel the need to smear the 'oppostion', it just strikes me as incredibly childish. If you'd have actually used Shimano or Campagnolo and found some flaw, then you'd have a point, but you're simply putting down options you have no experience with.
You should read my posts again. Where do you see attacking?

I have provided enough facts to make it clear that DOT fluid is better.

This is not Sram vs. Shimano vs. Campagnolo vs. xy discussion, this is only DOT fluid vs mineral oil discussion.

Mineral oil is environmentally friendlier? Mineral oil is based mostly on petroleum. Petroleum have many adverse impacts on human health and the ecosystem. If you spill it in the water or in the ground, you will contaminate and pollute both.

Most DOT brake fluids are based on glycol-ether. Glycol ethers are a group of solvents based on alkyl ethers of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol commonly used in paints and cleaners. Ethylene glycol breaks down in air in about 10 days and in water or soil in a few weeks. For example, it enters the environment through the dispersal of ethylene glycol-containing products, especially at airports, where it is used in deicing agents for runways and aeroplanes. Propylene glycol is also biodegradable.

If mineral oil was better, it would be used in motor vehicles.

EOD for me :)

Vagabond
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:08 am
Location: Washington State with brief stays in the Great Plains

by Vagabond

Rim brakes work fine for me. Even in the rain on steep descents. I'm going to build up a Moots gravel bike soon and I'll put discs on that for tire clearance. For me, it's a gimmick on road frames. Just like electronic.
Colnago e Campagnolo

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Lewn777
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

ND4SPD wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 12:25 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:42 am
It could be a problem with mineral based systems if there was any moisture in the system. Only it's never really been reported and I've never seen it so you can go on and on about this being a 'problem' with mineral oil, but it's completely a non issue. I really don't see how moisture is ever going to enter a sealed system from below, more likely it would condense from the air in the reservoir and how the hell it would make it down to the caliper I have no clue. It's not a jam jar in an elementary school experiment.
You could say that for any brake system, either with DOT fluid or mineral oil, that moisture can't enter the system. But it will, sooner or later :)
Lewn777 wrote:These days SRAM have probably ironed out the deafening dry warbles, the even louder wet disk warbles, the gas bubbles trapped in the tiny reservoir causing the dead levers and needing to de-gas the fluid because of it, then leaving the levers strapped overnight to get rid of yet more bubbles trapped around pockets around the calipers and the need to spend hours tap-tatting on the cables and calipers. I came to the conclusion that DOT fluid was totally wrong for the application of bicycle brakes. That was what I had to do with Avid Juicy brakes ten years ago to make them work on my mates bike, they were garbage, but the newer generations of SRAM brakes are probably much better. :thumbup:
You have answered that for yourself it the next post:
Lewn777 wrote:The design of the reservoirs were poor they were very small and angled weirdly (plenty of other people on web forums agreed that the design was a bit flawed), loads of bubbles kept getting trapped in the system and we were getting intermitent soft levers.
:)

Like someone said, Avid is spelled wrong, there should be an 'O' in there. :mrgreen:
Lewn777 wrote:Why you need to go on the internet to attack mineral oil options that work perfectly well, are environmetally friendlier and in fact are the more trustworthy and more reliable market options is beyond me. Maybe you're yet another post purchase rationalization baby that's bought SRAM and needs to crybully over their choice being the cleverest choice to ensure that they've made the best choice.

Fact is SRAM shifting is excellent, their newer disk brakes are proabably very good. But also Shimano and Camapgnolo are excellent choices too. Why you feel the need to smear the 'oppostion', it just strikes me as incredibly childish. If you'd have actually used Shimano or Campagnolo and found some flaw, then you'd have a point, but you're simply putting down options you have no experience with.
You should read my posts again. Where do you see attacking?

I have provided enough facts to make it clear that DOT fluid is better.

This is not Sram vs. Shimano vs. Campagnolo vs. xy discussion, this is only DOT fluid vs mineral oil discussion.

Mineral oil is environmentally friendlier? Mineral oil is based mostly on petroleum. Petroleum have many adverse impacts on human health and the ecosystem. If you spill it in the water or in the ground, you will contaminate and pollute both.

Most DOT brake fluids are based on glycol-ether. Glycol ethers are a group of solvents based on alkyl ethers of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol commonly used in paints and cleaners. Ethylene glycol breaks down in air in about 10 days and in water or soil in a few weeks. For example, it enters the environment through the dispersal of ethylene glycol-containing products, especially at airports, where it is used in deicing agents for runways and aeroplanes. Propylene glycol is also biodegradable.

If mineral oil was better, it would be used in motor vehicles.

EOD for me :)
I don't see any evidence provided by you that for bicycles DOT fluid is better than mineral oil from evidence based written sources or from your personal experience. All I can see is opinionated bais from why DOT fluid is better based on it being used in motorized vehicles, of someone that wants to get in an argument for arguments sake arguing black is white or has bought into a DOT fluid system on their bike and is trying to prove their purchase was the right one.

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LeDuke
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by LeDuke

Vagabond wrote:Rim brakes work fine for me. Even in the rain on steep descents. I'm going to build up a Moots gravel bike soon and I'll put discs on that for tire clearance. For me, it's a gimmick on road frames. Just like electronic.
I’m guessing you aren’t exactly knocking on the door of any Strava KOMs going down the hill on that set up...


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by Weenie


spdntrxi
Posts: 3113
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

LeDuke wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:27 am
Vagabond wrote:Rim brakes work fine for me. Even in the rain on steep descents. I'm going to build up a Moots gravel bike soon and I'll put discs on that for tire clearance. For me, it's a gimmick on road frames. Just like electronic.
I’m guessing you aren’t exactly knocking on the door of any Strava KOMs going down the hill on that set up...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
or maybe no turns are involved... he didn't mention he was on carbon or not though. Textured carbon is passable at best. non-textured is downright scary.

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