2018 PRO thread

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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Antoine
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: France

by Antoine

spud wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:53 pm
given that he just won PR the week before, he doesn't have to do anyone any favors and pull them to the line.
Shutting down the race 1.5 km or so before the finish didn't do any favors to the public , the organizers, his team and their sponsor either.
Valgren is a good winner but at least sagan and Valverde were stronger.
Bora just renewed their sponsorship for 2 years more and the way Sagan rewarded them is by not trying to win, at this point he had 90% chance to win and 99% to make a podium.
The fastest guy in a group has to pull in this situation, at least a decent pace and not slow down the group like he did.
Dillier gave a great example of sportsmanship, Sagan has no clue.

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tymon_tm
Posts: 2323
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:35 pm

by tymon_tm

erm, with all fairness - Sagan did work this time, together with Valv and Fuglsang mainly. but it's not his fault Astana had 2 guys, one of whom was just resting to make the final attack. and it's not entirely his fault either the group was too big for everyone to work and he didn't feel like bringing A-class riders to the finish line. same criticism can be poointed at Valv, Alphaville or Wellens - why didn't they work their asses off to bring Valgren back?

at this point Astana won the race tactically - Fuglsang helped ensure the group won't be chased down, Valgren finished it off. and again - how many racers per team were there in Amstel? how many teammates Sagan had?
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

BdaGhisallo
Posts: 1864
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:38 pm

by BdaGhisallo

maquisard wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:18 pm
Daniel Friebe Retweeted EL PAÍS Deportes

El País report: former US Postal doctor Luis García del Moral told the Court of Arbitration for Sport in 2016 that Michele Ferrari helped "prepare" Spanish cyclists for the '96 Atlanta Olympics.

Interesting in that Indurain and Olano took gold and silver in the men's individual TT. It also lays bare the fantasy that Indurain won the Tour de France clean.
Did anyone who was paying attention in the 1990s ever believe that fantasy in the first place?

pastronef
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:33 am
Location: Asti, ITALIA

by pastronef

finally Astana and Quickstep are taking back cycling to where it belongs, after the pesky Brits ruled it for a few years. the old traditional cycling nations like Belgium and Kazakhstan
oh wait
:wink:

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Kjetil
Posts: 1378
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Hamar, Norway
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by Kjetil

Ah, Buth the Kazak team is really Italian you know, Beppe Martinelli and all...

...

Why should Sagan go for a minor race like AGR? :thumbup: He should have been in Lanillis on Sunday, not Maastricht.
Bianchi-Campagnolo

Multebear
Posts: 980
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

Antoine wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:21 pm

Shutting down the race 1.5 km or so before the finish didn't do any favors to the public , the organizers, his team and their sponsor either.
Valgren is a good winner but at least sagan and Valverde were stronger.
Bora just renewed their sponsorship for 2 years more and the way Sagan rewarded them is by not trying to win, at this point he had 90% chance to win and 99% to make a podium.
The fastest guy in a group has to pull in this situation, at least a decent pace and not slow down the group like he did.
Dillier gave a great example of sportsmanship, Sagan has no clue.
Nobody has to do anything. That is the beautiful thing about cycling. It's a dynamic game of chess. I always prefer the strongest guy to win, but I also like the most cunning guy to win. The only thing I dislike is when a wheelsucker wins. Sagan had zero obligation to do anything. Tactics is always very difficult for him, because he usually is the strongest, and everybody looks to him. And what if he did? What if he did pull all the guys to the line to prevent Valgrens win. It would just have been someone else, who'd win, and everybody would criticize Sagan for not riding smarter.

cdncyclist
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:10 am

by cdncyclist

Completely agree with this - in fact my opinion is even further out, I think it is fantastic when the strongest guy, or strongest team, is thwarted by beautifully executed tactics - this is what makes racing beautiful (and very different from events that are designed to identify the strongest - time trials, or some of the track events).

Sagan *should not* have pulled back Valgren, it would have been foolish of him to do so. I also appreciate that while Sagan does like to win, he also appreciates the daring attacks, and doesn't just try to snuff everything out.

nathanong87
Resident master of GIF
Posts: 3182
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:44 am
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by nathanong87

anyone think that valverde should have done more work to bring it back to a sprint. Even depleting himself further by chasing (along with others) I think* he still would have been heavily favorited. Those digs he put into sagan and wellens were no joke.... but there is this running image of valverde in my head that he like doesn't want to work along side a small group in the finale. Other amstel gold races come to mind (when him and gerrans were chasing down gilbert).

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TonyM
Posts: 2025
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:11 pm

by TonyM

And not to forget it is “just” Amstel.....Liège-Bastogne-Liège is much more important for Valverde, Sagan etc....

peted76
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:30 pm

by peted76

BdaGhisallo wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:57 pm
maquisard wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:18 pm
Daniel Friebe Retweeted EL PAÍS Deportes

El País report: former US Postal doctor Luis García del Moral told the Court of Arbitration for Sport in 2016 that Michele Ferrari helped "prepare" Spanish cyclists for the '96 Atlanta Olympics.

Interesting in that Indurain and Olano took gold and silver in the men's individual TT. It also lays bare the fantasy that Indurain won the Tour de France clean.
Did anyone who was paying attention in the 1990s ever believe that fantasy in the first place?
LOL surely 'no-one' believes Indurain won the TdF clean!

Fiery
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:21 am

by Fiery

nathanong87 wrote:... but there is this running image of valverde in my head that he like doesn't want to work along side a small group in the finale. Other amstel gold races come to mind (when him and gerrans were chasing down gilbert).
Yeah, I have this picture of Valverde stubbornly staying second wheel in whatever group he’s in, only to jump out and sprint to the line in the last hundred meters or so - even though he’s actually sprinting for a podium position, the wheel he was following was obviously spent, and the actual winner was ahead within sight the whole time. I’m sure there were lots of races that prove me wrong, but I got a strong impression that he would often rather wheel suck onto the podium than risk it all for the win.

Rondje
Posts: 1011
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:46 pm
Location: Netherlands

by Rondje

I think the Amstel is the only Ardenne race Valverde hasn't won yet. Maybe it is because it doesn't end on a hill anymore? You can't just sit on a wheel and burst it out on the Cauberg without holding it on the 1/1.5km straight line afterward. Like you can in Huy and LBL.

This year Amstel probably had the strongest start list we've seen in a classic this year. Doesn't make it as important as a monument of course, but it shows the versatility of the course and a lot of riders feel they stand a chance to win and dare to race those crazy road furniture roads.

Frolle
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Denmark

by Frolle

Image

Really nice custom paint job for Lopez

maquisard
Posts: 1823
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

Pozzovivo, one of the few people that actually looks worse than Froome on a bike!

spud
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:52 am

by spud

Antoine wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:21 pm
spud wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:53 pm
given that he just won PR the week before, he doesn't have to do anyone any favors and pull them to the line.
Shutting down the race 1.5 km or so before the finish didn't do any favors to the public , the organizers, his team and their sponsor either.
Valgren is a good winner but at least sagan and Valverde were stronger.
Bora just renewed their sponsorship for 2 years more and the way Sagan rewarded them is by not trying to win, at this point he had 90% chance to win and 99% to make a podium.
The fastest guy in a group has to pull in this situation, at least a decent pace and not slow down the group like he did.
Dillier gave a great example of sportsmanship, Sagan has no clue.
maybe I was watching a different race, but Sagan was on the front when the break went, therefore he WAS ALREADY PULLING. It was Valverde who "should" have reacted, but he didn't. You won't win very many races if everyone knows you will always pull back the break. Letting that break go was a relatively inexpensive way of demonstrating that he won't be whored out by the rest of the group - if they want to win, they have to work and take their chances as well. Valgren did it right, Sagan did not do it wrong.

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