2017 'PRO' cycling discussion.

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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sfo423
Posts: 349
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:12 pm
Location: San Francisco

by sfo423

bilwit wrote:
sfo423 wrote:I feel so sad for the Sir. It really must have been hell. Taking drugs to shed weight under the guise of allergies or some nonsense. Thank goodness for money and good doctors (read TUE) and lost laptops.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/news/wiggins-anti-doping-probe-living-hell_452092


The TUEs were not part of the investigation because--all ethics aside--they were legally prescribed and taken.


That's the story. Ethics. Not some witch hunt over he said/she said. Prescribing a known drug that enhances performance because you say you have allergies is bs. Sure, legal. But he knows what he did.

jooo
Posts: 1510
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:48 am

by jooo

"But he knows what he did?"

Have 2 solid seasons worth of stage races that includes winning a TDF? I'd sign up for that :thumbup:

IMO the fact that you've so easily jumped to moral high ground shows you could take some time to further grasp the complexity of sport.

by Weenie


ghisallo2003
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:10 pm

by ghisallo2003

bilwit wrote:
sfo423 wrote:I feel so sad for the Sir. It really must have been hell. Taking drugs to shed weight under the guise of allergies or some nonsense. Thank goodness for money and good doctors (read TUE) and lost laptops.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/news/wiggins-anti-doping-probe-living-hell_452092


The investigation had little to do with the TUEs you reference, which shows that you are as uninformed as all these other smear campaign media drones. The TUEs were not part of the investigation because--all ethics aside--they were legally prescribed and taken. There was nothing to investigate. The UKAD investigation that was concluded was for the "jiffy bag" taken after the last stage of the 2011 Dauphine. I must emphasize the word after, because it was administered after he already won the stage and overall. The Daily Mail put this on a headline and implied that Triamcinolone was taken, however this doesn't make any sense because if they were trying to cheat, they wouldn't take it AFTER the race already ended and, moreover, he participated (and won) the 2011 National Road Race a week later, so any PED would have been flagged there if there was any (this is a moot point anyway since he crashed out of the 2011 Tour).

What is shady is Sky's excuses for having no medical records and the laptop being stolen is pretty absurd, but the fact is that the freaking DAILY MAIL put out this story which led to a 14-month long UKAD investigation for an allegation that didn't even make sense. Wiggins would be right to pursue legal action against them for defamation. It was unsubstantiated from the beginning.


The allegation would make sense If the contents of the jiffy were used on the final day, even after the stage, which would technically requires a TUE, or took place in a country in which this would be unlawful.

Rondje
Posts: 1001
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:46 pm
Location: Netherlands

by Rondje

bilwit wrote:What is shady is Sky's excuses for having no medical records and the laptop being stolen is pretty absurd, but the fact is that the freaking DAILY MAIL put out this story which led to a 14-month long UKAD investigation for an allegation that didn't even make sense. Wiggins would be right to pursue legal action against them for defamation. It was unsubstantiated from the beginning.


A bit of a contradiction here. You say a 14 month long investigation didn't make sense, while at the same you call Sky's excuses shady. It is more then shady that a very professional organisation like Sky "lost" a laptop and have erased medical records to hide their shady business. All these things exactly show why they where investigated and also why I don't believe they are innocent.

nathanong87
Resident master of GIF
Posts: 3177
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:44 am
Contact:

by nathanong87

Tinea Pedis wrote:Cycling fans eh, decry pros for not speaking out and for being too vanilla. Lambaste them when they do. Screwed either way.


it’s fine if he wants to write a book , in retirement he’s gotta monetize something to continue paying the bills. grab fondos and all. Dude has more media about him post retirement than he did while he was riding. His sarcastic tone seems a little too forced for my liking.

my personal issue with this particular PG case is if he was convinced when it happened , he should have spoken up as it happened.... It’s as if he got on youtube a week before his book and watched a few 7 year old clips to formulate his opinion on fabian. Like i’m all for pros callin out dudes as it happens, why not if the claims are warranted or based on evidence. Doesn’t stop riders from going to the news about holding onto cars or making racists comments or intentionally trying to crash each other. I think it’s the convenient timing of his book claims that gets people triggered.

i don’t doubt the existence of motor doping or whatever but fabian has won plenty of other races in dare i say , similar fashion, without any funky cadence or hand gesture analysis on them against the same dudes. Seems to correspond and cohere as a truth claim.

spud
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:52 am

by spud

Sir Brad may be bitter about the whole affair, but pursuing legal action is going to prolong it for several more years. The jiffy bag was pretty damn suspicious, and having seen everyone's past cries of innocence, only to be followed by admissions, I don't believe that riders were 100% fully informed, nor did they want to be, about what they were taking. Hopefully the situation has moved on since then.

DurianGrey
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:57 pm

by DurianGrey

nathanong87 wrote:
Tinea Pedis wrote:Cycling fans eh, decry pros for not speaking out and for being too vanilla. Lambaste them when they do. Screwed either way.


it’s fine if he wants to write a book , in retirement he’s gotta monetize something to continue paying the bills. grab fondos and all. Dude has more media about him post retirement than he did while he was riding. His sarcastic tone seems a little too forced for my liking.

my personal issue with this particular PG case is if he was convinced when it happened , he should have spoken up as it happened.... It’s as if he got on youtube a week before his book and watched a few 7 year old clips to formulate his opinion on fabian. Like i’m all for pros callin out dudes as it happens, why not if the claims are warranted or based on evidence. Doesn’t stop riders from going to the news about holding onto cars or making racists comments or intentionally trying to crash each other. I think it’s the convenient timing of his book claims that gets people triggered.

i don’t doubt the existence of motor doping or whatever but fabian has won plenty of other races in dare i say , similar fashion, without any funky cadence or hand gesture analysis on them against the same dudes. Seems to correspond and cohere as a truth claim.


Do you think that a no-name pack fodder dude making noise about one of the greatest stars in the sport would have been seriously listened to in 2010?

Antoine
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: France

by Antoine

nathanong87 wrote:i don’t doubt the existence of motor doping or whatever but fabian has won plenty of other races in dare i say , similar fashion, without any funky cadence or hand gesture analysis on them against the same dudes. Seems to correspond and cohere as a truth claim.

What's more efficient : EPO or motor doping or both at the same time ?
Maybe in his next book Gaimon will tell about the operation Puerto and who was Luigi.

sfo423
Posts: 349
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:12 pm
Location: San Francisco

by sfo423

Please enlighten on the complexity of the sport which you reference? Is it morals? Paycheck for performance? Win at all costs? Blindly follow the herd?

Possibly your professional cycling background can help me better understand?

jooo wrote:"But he knows what he did?"

Have 2 solid seasons worth of stage races that includes winning a TDF? I'd sign up for that :thumbup:

IMO the fact that you've so easily jumped to moral high ground shows you could take some time to further grasp the complexity of sport.

bilwit
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

ghisallo2003 wrote:
bilwit wrote:
sfo423 wrote:I feel so sad for the Sir. It really must have been hell. Taking drugs to shed weight under the guise of allergies or some nonsense. Thank goodness for money and good doctors (read TUE) and lost laptops.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/news/wiggins-anti-doping-probe-living-hell_452092


The investigation had little to do with the TUEs you reference, which shows that you are as uninformed as all these other smear campaign media drones. The TUEs were not part of the investigation because--all ethics aside--they were legally prescribed and taken. There was nothing to investigate. The UKAD investigation that was concluded was for the "jiffy bag" taken after the last stage of the 2011 Dauphine. I must emphasize the word after, because it was administered after he already won the stage and overall. The Daily Mail put this on a headline and implied that Triamcinolone was taken, however this doesn't make any sense because if they were trying to cheat, they wouldn't take it AFTER the race already ended and, moreover, he participated (and won) the 2011 National Road Race a week later, so any PED would have been flagged there if there was any (this is a moot point anyway since he crashed out of the 2011 Tour).

What is shady is Sky's excuses for having no medical records and the laptop being stolen is pretty absurd, but the fact is that the freaking DAILY MAIL put out this story which led to a 14-month long UKAD investigation for an allegation that didn't even make sense. Wiggins would be right to pursue legal action against them for defamation. It was unsubstantiated from the beginning.


The allegation would make sense If the contents of the jiffy were used on the final day, even after the stage, which would technically requires a TUE, or took place in a country in which this would be unlawful.


Why would they take the TUE hours after Dauphine ended if they intended to use it for the Tour? Like I said, given that he did the Nationals within a week, it would have been flagged there.

Rondje wrote:
bilwit wrote:What is shady is Sky's excuses for having no medical records and the laptop being stolen is pretty absurd, but the fact is that the freaking DAILY MAIL put out this story which led to a 14-month long UKAD investigation for an allegation that didn't even make sense. Wiggins would be right to pursue legal action against them for defamation. It was unsubstantiated from the beginning.


A bit of a contradiction here. You say a 14 month long investigation didn't make sense, while at the same you call Sky's excuses shady. It is more then shady that a very professional organisation like Sky "lost" a laptop and have erased medical records to hide their shady business. All these things exactly show why they where investigated and also why I don't believe they are innocent.


The investigation didn't make sense because it was solely based on hearsay put out by The Daily Mail about alleged "cheating" that took place AFTER a race already concluded, where it would not benefit them. If they wanted to cheat, they could have easily just shot him up out of competition, closer to the Tour or--in this case--before Dauphine started. Like I said, it's all ultimately worthless anyways since he was DNF at the Tour that year after breaking his collarbone.

For those of you who think they used the TUEs to legally shoot him up with PEDs before the Tour and that it's proof of some systemic Team Sky/British Cycling conspiracy:

(note that Fluticasone/Salbutamol are used in inhalers that used to require a TUE until 2010)

2003 - DNF at the Giro due to allergies
2003 - Cofidis - French Cycling Federation grants TUE for Fluticasone and Salbutamol
2004 - CA - Authorization to compete at the summer Olympics using Fluticasone and Salbutamol under IOC doping regulations after a series of lung function tests by Andrea Wooles
2005 - 2008 - FDJ - Went back to IOC each year for renewal--lung function tests, nasal endoscopy, etc
2008 - High Road - TUE for Salbutamol, Budesonide & Formoterol.
2009 - Garmin - Repeat of 2008 High Road TUE
2010 - Sky - none
2011-2013 - Sky - Triamcinolone

Looks like someone with a history of hay fever & asthma to me. Also note that they don't need a TUE to take PEDs out of competition, as long it's out of their system come test time. The fact that they applied for the Triamcinolone TUEs altogether shows that they wanted to be transparent about its usage.
Last edited by bilwit on Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ghisallo2003
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:10 pm

by ghisallo2003

Day of competition, including afterwards is in competition and a TUE is required.

Why take it? Long term run-up to TdF.

The story is not yet concluded.
Last edited by ghisallo2003 on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AJS914
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Also note that they don't need a TUE to take PEDs out of competition, as long it's out of their system come test time.


They can't legally take banned substances out of competition. They would still need a TUE for a legit medical usage.

In isolation the TUEs look bad for Sky but I'd love to see a list of all TUEs granted for the same year. If TUEs were public information, they wouldn't try to game the system by asking for them for performance reasons under the guise of medical reasons.

pastronef
Posts: 1337
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:33 am
Location: Asti, ITALIA

by pastronef

bilwit wrote:
For those of you who think they used the TUEs to legally shoot him up with PEDs before the Tour and that it's proof of some systemic Team Sky/British Cycling conspiracy:

(note that Fluticasone/Salbutamol are used in inhalers that used to require a TUE until 2010)

2003 - DNF at the Giro due to allergies
2003 - Cofidis - French Cycling Federation grants TUE for Fluticasone and Salbutamol
2004 - CA - Authorization to compete at the summer Olympics using Fluticasone and Salbutamol under IOC doping regulations after a series of lung function tests by Andrea Wooles
2005 - 2008 - FDJ - Went back to IOC each year for renewal--lung funsion tests, nasal endoscopy, etc
2008 - High Road - TUE for Salbutamol, Budesonide & Formoterol.
2009 - Garmin - Repeat of 2008 High Road TUE
2010 - Sky - none
2011-2013 - Sky - Triamcinolone



interesting. where does this detailed list come from? thank you

thePrince
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:09 am

by thePrince

I want to believe that timeline. The last entry is where it falls apart for me. Triamcinolone injections are used to treat severe acute allergic reactions, not chronic.

So does that timeline illustrate:
1. chronic allergies and TUE use or
2. chronic TUE abuse or
3. chronic allergies & acute TUE abuse (Triamcinolone @ Sky)

2 or 3 seems the most plausible, especially 3. Dude has allergy problems and treated with allergy drugs (Fluticasone and Salbutamol), then the maestros at Sky use it as a misdirection for using Triamcinolone.

bilwit
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

ghisallo2003 wrote:Day of competition, including afterwards is in competition and a TUE is required.

Why take it? Long term run-up to TdF.


Why would they rush to take it hours after Dauphine ended when they have a legal TUE to use it for the Tour where it would be more useful? The allegation does not make any sense.

AJS914 wrote:
Also note that they don't need a TUE to take PEDs out of competition, as long it's out of their system come test time.


They can't legally take banned substances out of competition. They would still need a TUE for a legit medical usage.

In isolation the TUEs look bad for Sky but I'd love to see a list of all TUEs granted for the same year. If TUEs were public information, they wouldn't try to game the system by asking for them for performance reasons under the guise of medical reasons.


Well yeah, that's what I'm referring to. If they actually wanted to illegally cheat, they would do so out of competition--no need for a TUE, especially for things like this where the half life is around two weeks. In other words, why would they rush to illegally take it at the end of Dauphine when they already have legal permission to take it at a point where it would be more beneficial to them?

pastronef wrote:interesting. where does this detailed list come from? thank you


the leaked Fancy Bears records..

thePrince wrote:I want to believe that timeline. The last entry is where it falls apart for me. Triamcinolone injections are used to treat severe acute allergic reactions, not chronic.

So does that timeline illustrate:
1. chronic allergies and TUE use or
2. chronic TUE abuse or
3. chronic allergies & acute TUE abuse (Triamcinolone @ Sky)

2 or 3 seems the most plausible, especially 3. Dude has allergy problems and treated with allergy drugs (Fluticasone and Salbutamol), then the maestros at Sky use it as a misdirection for using Triamcinolone.


I actually do believe they leaned towards Triamcinolone because of whatever unquantified performance enhancement they could possibly get, as well as to nuke hay fever or potential hay fever. I still don't understand why WADA doesn't just do a test to prove if the dosages prescribed effects performance or not and by how much. And yes, even after all this mudslinging, there is still no factual evidence or forgone scientific conclusion to say that Triamcinolone definitively enhances performance (there's an article on Velonews or somewhere that quotes several medical practitioners on their opinion and none of them could agree, some even suggested it would be detrimental due to the loss of muscle). We know that guys like David Millar took an unknown amount to balance out the testosterone/EPO/etc he was taking at the same time but a one-off at the dosage prescribed? It would be very easy for them to prove either way.

I personally had a pretty bad case of it this summer for several months but still rode my bike five days a week (can't imagine doing a competition--let alone a three week grand tour at the highest level--in this state, especially when I wear contacts).

by Weenie


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