2017 'PRO' cycling discussion.

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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tymon_tm
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by tymon_tm

it's easy to criticize Sagan for how he is on a bike (I posted a link to a story about Sagan a couple pages ago - it sheds some light on his personality) but see this - if he wasn't like that then
a) he mostly likely wouldn't be that succesful
b) racing would be a lot duller without his mojo workin

how many guys like that are there, willing to go all in and actually capable of finishing it off? I'd say just a few. plus, those duels between Sags and Kwiato are becoming something exceptional, a hallmark of this current generation of riders whose bold riding style doesn't really make us miss the old chaps that much.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

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tymon_tm
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by tymon_tm

one more thing - we tend to see Kwiato as the lesser one, mostly due to his last season which was a disaster zone. but let's not forget MK has an agenda of his own, and some hefty palmares proving he's every bit the rider those rainbow stripes on his shoulders indicate. yeah, Sags a genius, a natural, and probably THE rider, but every hero from every legend needs a protagonist, and it seems Kwiato is to Sagan what e.g. Ullrich was to Lance - although a lot more succesful and actually capable of defeating the wuderkind.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

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LouisN
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by LouisN

In my opinion Alaphilippe was cooked after the huge effort for the Poggio attack. During the descent, he almost took Kwiat out once because he looked dazed, and he was riding erratically, in all the holes and was bounced around very hard, compared to Sagan, who rode hard but was saving energy, was very smooth.
Kwiatkowski did a very intelligent race, impressive to think when you're "in the rivet" like this.

Louis :)

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

nathanong87 wrote:lets make more important inferences .....

ALL had white shoes + socks and at good lengths. People take notes.
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kauphy
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by kauphy

nathanong87 wrote:
kauphy wrote:Very impressed with Alaphilippe. He effectively bridged the gap to Sagan alone. He definitely has a very bright future if he develops at this rate. Of all the French riders today, he's by far the most enjoyable to watch.


dunno what you mean by 'alone' but he initially followed MK who was the first of those two, to react to sagan's attack and flicked alaphilippe through, then alaphilippe close the final gap. I'm not sure if it was the smarts of MK to ask for help, or if MK couldn't and needed* the help.


Somehow missed it while watching it live! But yes, donno if it was MK being smart or if he needed the help but I guess it's the former.

BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

spud wrote:Maybe I'm too negative, but in that situation, I'd say to Kwiato that he needs to work - Viviani winning the sprint? Not a chance. Step up and do some work, the worst you will get is third. But I wouldn't drag the guy to the line come hell or high water. Alaphilip with Gaviria, that's legit, I wouldn't expect him to work.

If everyone knows Sagan will always pull, then they can play the games.


Who remembers the guys who shared the workload evenly with classics masters like Kelly, Van Looy and de Vlaeminck back in the day, and lost the race - anyone? But I do remember Ralf Jaerman winning Amstel Gold after outfoxing the world champion Gianni Bugno back in 1993, having taken advantage of the fact that Bugno was the overwhelming favorite and shirked some of the workload.

This is cut throat sport folks, this is not some gentlemen's society fun golf tournament. It's about winning - that's what they get paid for. "Oh don't worry about sacrificing a great chance at winning a monument, you did share the workload admirably with the world champion - and that's all we ask" said no team ever!

If Sagan didn't want to get played like he was then he needed to race smarter. It's not enough to be the strongest. Cycling is the sport were being strongest doesn't guarantee the win, and that's surely what we all love about it.

mattr
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by mattr

Only time the winner needs to poke their wheel out at the front of the race is about 5 metres before the line.

Multebear
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by Multebear

BdaGhisallo wrote:
This is cut throat sport folks, this is not some gentlemen's society fun golf tournament. It's about winning - that's what they get paid for.

If Sagan didn't want to get played like he was then he needed to race smarter. It's not enough to be the strongest. Cycling is the sport were being strongest doesn't guarantee the win, and that's surely what we all love about it.



It's true, that being strongest, isn't a guarantee to win. But you surely don't win, if you sit down and roundtable who needs to do the next pull. There was no time to race smarter.

Kwiato went to the front once or twice, but besides that he let Sagan do all the work. Kwiato either didn't have the legs to do more work, or he was willing to sacrifice their gap to the peloton just to increase his chances to outsprint Sagan on the line. Either of the two doesn't make Kwiato a champion. It makes him a winner, but not a champion.

Sagan sacrificed it all. He even gambled his own chance to win the race just to make sure that he at least made the podium. That's the heart of a true champion, and that's the kind of thing that spectators love about the sport.

Racing is about winning - yes. But it's more than that. There are wins, and then there are great wins. This wasn't a great win IMHO. Last years MSR wasn't either. Froomes downhill attack and win at the 2016 TdF stage 9 was a great win. Sagans 2016 Tour of Flanders was a great win.

Rondje
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by Rondje

Are all the BMC guys forced to ride with watches to statisfy the sponsor? Wearing it even above a arm warmer just looks stupid.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BR1TmL2B7KI/

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Fixie82
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by Fixie82

The same could be argued for MK. He gambled his own chance to win and came up trumps. He just made a different bet than Sagan. MK was prepared to lose the race if the chasing group caught them and let Sagan do the lions share of the work (or Sagan chose to).

One rider played the form/strength card and the other played the tactics card. In this race the tactics card was successful.

Why is one choice make a champion and the other merely a winner?

wingguy
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by wingguy

Multebear wrote:Racing is about winning - yes. But it's more than that. There are wins, and then there are great wins. This wasn't a great win IMHO. Last years MSR wasn't either. Froomes downhill attack and win at the 2016 TdF stage 9 was a great win. Sagans 2016 Tour of Flanders was a great win.

So what? Even if we accept your criteria, Kwiato already has enough great wins to make him a champion, so I doubt he's at all bothered :wink:

Multebear
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by Multebear

Fixie82 wrote:The same could be argued for MK. He gambled his own chance to win and came up trumps. He just made a different bet than Sagan. MK was prepared to lose the race if the chasing group caught them and let Sagan do the lions share of the work (or Sagan chose to).

One rider played the form/strength card and the other played the tactics card. In this race the tactics card was successful.

Why is one choice make a champion and the other merely a winner?


Exactly. Kwiato gambled his own chance to win. But he did it by doing "nothing". Sagan gambled his own chance by doing the hard work for the others. In this case doing "nothing", by (almost) not contributing at all, was the winning move. If you prefer winners to be passive, instead of ignite the race and make it a spectacle, then so be it. I most definitely don't.

AJS914
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by AJS914

>>There was no time to race smarter.

Sagen could have insisted on the other guys pulling a little more. In fact, he takes over pulling as if he was impatient with the other guys. Alaphillippe took a pull for just a few seconds before Sagen took right over again. It's like Sagen is running on pure adrenaline and can't help himself. It's what makes him exciting to watch.

In the end, he started the sprint a touch too early and he lost by centimeters. Winning a sprint requires some bit of strategy and Sagen appears to only rely on strength in these situations. When he has another world champ in the bunch, that is obviously not enough. He's young though and will get better with age. As it is, he already one of the greatest talents we've ever seen and he will surely have a long and prestigious palmares.
Last edited by AJS914 on Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

nathanong87 wrote:
Mockenrue wrote:
I bet Pinarello's marketing department will be dining out on this for some time.


lol ANY company would.

lets make more important inferences .....

ALL had white shoes + white socks and at good lengths. People take notes.

Those SIDI's need a scrub ;)

I don't get the idea that Sagan should ride differently. "A string of seconds" is proof the guy has a massive pair and backs his ability to lead himself out 100%. No it doesn't work every time but correct me if I'm wrong, he won Richmond with a solo drive...
Last edited by Nefarious86 on Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cdncyclist
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by cdncyclist

Multebear wrote:
It's true, that being strongest, isn't a guarantee to win. But you surely don't win, if you sit down and roundtable who needs to do the next pull. There was no time to race smarter.

Kwiato went to the front once or twice, but besides that he let Sagan do all the work. Kwiato either didn't have the legs to do more work, or he was willing to sacrifice their gap to the peloton just to increase his chances to outsprint Sagan on the line. Either of the two doesn't make Kwiato a champion. It makes him a winner, but not a champion.

Sagan sacrificed it all. He even gambled his own chance to win the race just to make sure that he at least made the podium. That's the heart of a true champion, and that's the kind of thing that spectators love about the sport.

Racing is about winning - yes. But it's more than that. There are wins, and then there are great wins. This wasn't a great win IMHO. Last years MSR wasn't either. Froomes downhill attack and win at the 2016 TdF stage 9 was a great win. Sagans 2016 Tour of Flanders was a great win.


While you are of course entitled to your opinion, I completely disagree. Sagan had a fantastic race, and MK a superb win (definitely not mutually exclusive).

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