2024 Pro thread

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

Moderators: robbosmans, Moderator Team

User avatar
Miller
Posts: 2801
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

DanW wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 8:18 pm
BdaGhisallo wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 7:04 pm

Run them using mass-start bike and kit tech.
"Road bike" TTs have been a thing in the UK for a while and lots of clubs have run these for ages. Ultimately it is very hard to establish rules for these as TT frames are "road legal" and you end up with the fastest tyres on the max rim depth allowed by the rules at the time by that event, skin suits much the same, helmets are restricted compared to a regular TT, positions get close to TT with forearms resting on very wide flat top drop bars...
Yes, all this.

UK had a road bike national championship last month. I'm not privy to the details but someone has lodged a complaint about the fastest rider's machine or the way he was riding it (not sure which) and over a month later no result has been published while due process follows its slow path.

So RB events, intended as an easy path into time-trialling, and to be fair I think that is successful at grass roots level, get very complicated and legalistic at the sharp end of racing.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



User avatar
LeDuke
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:39 am
Location: Front Range, CO

by LeDuke

DanW wrote:
BdaGhisallo wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 7:04 pm

Run them using mass-start bike and kit tech.
"Road bike" TTs have been a thing in the UK for a while and lots of clubs have run these for ages. Ultimately it is very hard to establish rules for these as TT frames are "road legal" and you end up with the fastest tyres on the max rim depth allowed by the rules at the time by that event, skin suits much the same, helmets are restricted compared to a regular TT, positions get close to TT with forearms resting on very wide flat top drop bars...

Basically it is a good theory but just ends up pretty much a regular TT on convoluted bikes
Then put them on roads where you have to turn, handle your bike, use the brakes, climb, descend, etc. Maybe a bit of, gasp, gravel. You know, real roads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
MDecius
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:50 pm

by MDecius

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 6:32 pm
MDecius wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 10:17 am
I didn't know that riders had any dislike of doing TTTs... Is it the risk of crashes?

From a relatively new fan's perspective, I really like the "classic" GT format of prologue, ITT, and TTT. I wonder if including TTTs in the races would impact the overall team makeup enough to consider bringing more powerful riders to the grand tours rather than just a team of climbing lieutenants for the leader (who is also a climber).

The problem with TTs and TTTs is how heavily equipment based they are. If your team isn't on Conti GP5K TTs or Vittoria Corsa Pro Speeds, you're automatically at a disadvantage. If your helmet, speedsuit, etc. aren't up top snuff, you can lose minutes over the course of three races against the clock.
Is there really that large of a difference though between top teams? Half the peloton is on GP5K and the other half is on Corsa Pros, some outliers on Pirelli but they have a Race TT tire (not tested on BRR from what I can see). All teams have a dedicated TT bike, every team uses disc wheels, it seems everyone uses the new-school "hands-high" aero position. I could believe there's some marginal gains out there remaining in clothing materials, trying to shave 2W off the bike with a 1x like Ineos tries to, but I can't really imagine that putting the same rider on 2 different teams would cost him minutes.

And if I'm wrong and we really wanted to solve that problem, there's an easy solution. Standardize the bikes, so that all TT stages use a standard frame and kit, which is delivered to the riders at the start of the year and is the same for all teams. Get sponsorship money out of the equation, if it's really that big of a problem.

DanW wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 8:26 pm
It seems to be partly that the best teams (money and skill gaps) just get bigger time gaps than they otherwise would on a different stage so the entire GT becomes more predictable and also that not many teams spend much time actually practicing. Imagine how stressful GT prep must be without throwing in yet another discipline. Team pursuit teams aren't built overnight and it's a highly specialist thing to do- might as well throw in a BMX stage to diversify skills even further :)

On the people saying they want one day style routes and road surfaces... the response from the GT guys when they see those parcours is always "great another year they want one of us to crash out in a horrific manner for some light TV entertainment".

For me I think team sizes and team budgets are the real ones which affects how much a team can control a race and deal with misfortune.
Doesn't this seem to be a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem though? Teams don't practice TTT because there's no TTT in the race, so it makes less sense to put one back in, etc... Riders back in the day were training for them, so I wonder what decision was made to now take them out?

Regarding team sizes though, everyone gets to show up with the same # of riders. You mean team sizes outside of the race, the number of support staff they can hire, etc? If that's really a big problem, similar to the TT bike problem above, why not have a team salary cap? Many other big sports have them, and if we look at an even more important area of society where we _really_ don't want money to control the victors, democracies all have them for campaign finance.

I agree that putting classics stages in the GTs is not a great idea - no one among the big favourites seems to like them and it seems everyone is just riding to survive instead of racing them.
Road - Time Alpe d'Huez 01 rim
All-road - Diverge Elite DSW '16 disc

Karvalo
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

LeDuke wrote:
Wed May 29, 2024 3:11 am
DanW wrote:
BdaGhisallo wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 7:04 pm

Run them using mass-start bike and kit tech.
"Road bike" TTs have been a thing in the UK for a while and lots of clubs have run these for ages. Ultimately it is very hard to establish rules for these as TT frames are "road legal" and you end up with the fastest tyres on the max rim depth allowed by the rules at the time by that event, skin suits much the same, helmets are restricted compared to a regular TT, positions get close to TT with forearms resting on very wide flat top drop bars...

Basically it is a good theory but just ends up pretty much a regular TT on convoluted bikes
Then put them on roads where you have to turn, handle your bike, use the brakes, climb, descend, etc.
Have ya not watched a grand tour TT recently? :noidea:

Lina
Posts: 1252
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

Miller wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 8:53 pm
DanW wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 8:18 pm
BdaGhisallo wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 7:04 pm

Run them using mass-start bike and kit tech.
"Road bike" TTs have been a thing in the UK for a while and lots of clubs have run these for ages. Ultimately it is very hard to establish rules for these as TT frames are "road legal" and you end up with the fastest tyres on the max rim depth allowed by the rules at the time by that event, skin suits much the same, helmets are restricted compared to a regular TT, positions get close to TT with forearms resting on very wide flat top drop bars...
Yes, all this.

UK had a road bike national championship last month. I'm not privy to the details but someone has lodged a complaint about the fastest rider's machine or the way he was riding it (not sure which) and over a month later no result has been published while due process follows its slow path.

So RB events, intended as an easy path into time-trialling, and to be fair I think that is successful at grass roots level, get very complicated and legalistic at the sharp end of racing.
The complaint was about riding with forearms resting on the bar. Which is explicitly against the rules of the event and there are images of the rider doing so. It's as clearcut DQ as you can get. But we'll see if that happens.

While road bike TTs aren't without their own problems, most of them are caused by the rules not being enforced, like riding with your forearms resting on the bars. In amateur races road bike TTs are the only sensible way to go and I'd like to see the pros go the same way. Sure they'd optimize the bikes for it but it would also be a case for the manufacturers to have an actual aero road bike in their selection. Something that would sell much better than a UCI legal TT bike, which are basically only ridden by pros and a handful of amateurs.

Tifosiphil
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:09 pm

by Tifosiphil

Lina wrote:
Wed May 29, 2024 11:50 am
Miller wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 8:53 pm
DanW wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 8:18 pm
BdaGhisallo wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 7:04 pm

Run them using mass-start bike and kit tech.
"Road bike" TTs have been a thing in the UK for a while and lots of clubs have run these for ages. Ultimately it is very hard to establish rules for these as TT frames are "road legal" and you end up with the fastest tyres on the max rim depth allowed by the rules at the time by that event, skin suits much the same, helmets are restricted compared to a regular TT, positions get close to TT with forearms resting on very wide flat top drop bars...
Yes, all this.

UK had a road bike national championship last month. I'm not privy to the details but someone has lodged a complaint about the fastest rider's machine or the way he was riding it (not sure which) and over a month later no result has been published while due process follows its slow path.

So RB events, intended as an easy path into time-trialling, and to be fair I think that is successful at grass roots level, get very complicated and legalistic at the sharp end of racing.
The complaint was about riding with forearms resting on the bar. Which is explicitly against the rules of the event and there are images of the rider doing so. It's as clearcut DQ as you can get. But we'll see if that happens.

While road bike TTs aren't without their own problems, most of them are caused by the rules not being enforced, like riding with your forearms resting on the bars. In amateur races road bike TTs are the only sensible way to go and I'd like to see the pros go the same way. Sure they'd optimize the bikes for it but it would also be a case for the manufacturers to have an actual aero road bike in their selection. Something that would sell much better than a UCI legal TT bike, which are basically only ridden by pros and a handful of amateurs.
I checked that before the race (for a member of our club) and got told the rule was to stop "puppy paws" so resting on the forearms was allowed as long as you never let go of the brake lever. It seems like they really screwed up on that point.

They should have mentioned it at the start as I know at least 4-5 riders were running either foam on the handlebar or tape all the way to the stem so it should have been cleared up at the start

EDIT: Think they have added this since "N.B. For competitors riding Road Bikes, competitors must predominantly ride holding the drops or brake hoods. Riders may not ride in the "Puppy Paws" Position or simulate a Tri-Bar position by resting the forearms on the handlebars"

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12865
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

If Fox gets DQ’d for forearms on bars, then it’s only fair to DQ literally everyone else because they all did it.

UpFromOne
Posts: 1193
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:23 am
Location: Olympic Nat'l Park, WA

by UpFromOne

On the point of using aero road frames for ITTs, that would necessitate just as many rules as the TT-specific frames.
And many of the riding rules (paws, aerotuck) woiuld still apply.

IMO use of the same mass-start bikes for the TTs would be a plus. More fan interest in the riders' abilities.
Leave the techhy frames to the triathletes.

User avatar
tymon_tm
Posts: 3744
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:35 pm

by tymon_tm

Tour de France stage details have been finally revealed - what do you think about the route, esp. first two weeks? because by the looks of it, first 10-11 stages are bound for breakaways/sprinters. why? because there's hardly any incentive down the road for big teams to chase down. some serious hills appear on stage 11, but they come after 160km of racing and with two flat stages coming right after. with four, maybe five big teams watching each other and the mountain stages all packed in the last 3rd of the race, I just don't see much GC action in my crystal ball. so despite having arguably the most interesting field of GC contenders in recent years, this very well may turn into one huge stall :noidea:
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

EdWiser
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:50 pm

by EdWiser

Image

MichaelK
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:50 pm
Location: London, UK

by MichaelK

Alps, wet roads, TT bike... ?!

Karvalo
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

Who is it in the new bike thread who keeps talking about how much JV dislikes the S5? :P

User avatar
spokenwords
Posts: 370
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:21 am

by spokenwords

its 2024 and people are still resting bikes on the top tube.

as for the TdF it sounds like this will play into the hands of someone like Remco, or even a top form WvA. Its an exciting list of contenders even if the parcours is boring, imo.
"Notice how the door closes when the chimes of freedom ring." Joe Strummer
"this goes to 11" Nigel Tufnel
Dont move to Austin
Major Taylor rules.


robeambro
Posts: 1859
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

tymon_tm wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 1:34 pm
Tour de France stage details have been finally revealed - what do you think about the route, esp. first two weeks? because by the looks of it, first 10-11 stages are bound for breakaways/sprinters. why? because there's hardly any incentive down the road for big teams to chase down. some serious hills appear on stage 11, but they come after 160km of racing and with two flat stages coming right after. with four, maybe five big teams watching each other and the mountain stages all packed in the last 3rd of the race, I just don't see much GC action in my crystal ball. so despite having arguably the most interesting field of GC contenders in recent years, this very well may turn into one huge stall :noidea:
I'm happy as that gives JV a better fighting chance of riding himself into peak form. Well, as peak as it can be given his situation.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply