2023 Pro thread

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Lelandjt wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:12 pm
Lelandjt also wrote wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:37 pm
A lot of rich people watch golf, and a significant portion watch women's golf. Less people watch cycling and of those only a few watch women's cycling.
Fixed that for you. Even during my years trying to make money racing bikes I had no problem understanding that the money comes from entertaining & advertising. The amount of money would be reflective of how many people were being entertained and advertised to. It had nothing to do with how much risk I took or how cool of a thing I did. Best to just enjoy what perks may come from participating in your favorite activity at a high level and not get frustrated comparing to other professional sports and "sports".
I'm guessing you didn't read the article. It was not about the poor economics of women's cycling, it was in fact about how the outgoing organizer is basically tanking the whole thing because they now have no stake in it's future.

But you got me curious with this:
Lelandjt wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:12 pm
The amount of money would be reflective of how many people were being entertained and advertised to.
So a quick search and this is what I found:

Women's TdF from SportsProMedia.com:
The inaugural Tour de France Femmes cycling race generated average audiences of 2.25 million domestic viewers per stage on France Télévisions’ public service broadcast channels, for an average audience of share of 26.4 per cent across the race’s eight days.
Organisers confirmed viewership in France peaked with 5.1 million tuning into FTV during the final day to watch Dutch rider Annemiek van Vleuten wrap up her second stage win and the yellow jersey on 31st July – scoring a 45.6 per cent audience share. In total, the marquee women’s cycling event drew 20 million domestic viewers.
Outside of France, 75 million hours of coverage were broadcast across seven European countries, while 14 million viewers tuned across Eurosport’s multi-territory coverage.


Womens US Open Golf from SportsMediaWatch.com:
Last Sunday’s final round of the US Women’s Open earned a 0.5 rating and 728,000 viewers on FOX, down a tick in ratings and 17% in viewership from last year (0.6, 878K) and down a tick and 8% respectively from 2017 (0.6, 790K).
Do note that above is 4 years old but the numbers are pretty stagnant over time.

So 728,000 watched the women play the final round of US Open golf and 5.1 million watched the last stage of the women's TdF. FFS.

And compare totals for the events: 20 million in France and another 14 million around the planet. 34 million for women's cycling vs about 2 million for women's golf (a very generous calculation of 728,000, plus the first three rounds). Hmmm...it's not even close.

You would think advertisers would be competing for spots with that kind of viewership. Maybe they are, but the money sure isn't going to the riders.

Here is a good comparison:
Lorena Wiebes salary is rumoured to be not far off a half million Euro. Korean golfer Inbee Park has lifetime earnings over $18 million US. Clear to see Park is a huge talent, but it doesn't sit well with me.
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maquisard
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by maquisard

Mr.Gib wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:01 pm

You would think advertisers would be competing for spots with that kind of viewership. Maybe they are, but the money sure isn't going to the riders.
Because the conversion rates are much more nuanced than the picture you make. It is not just about raw viewing figures, it is about how likely those viewers are to convert into making purchases of products and services. Like it or not those conversion rates will be higher for followers of pro golf than casual viewers of cyciing. Cycling does such a poor job at managing fan engagement across multiple medias and platforms compared to other sports.

Finally I should add, I hate golf and wish all golf courses were turned into nice parks! I think people taking up golf in middle age is a sign they have given up on life.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

maquisard wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:28 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:01 pm

You would think advertisers would be competing for spots with that kind of viewership. Maybe they are, but the money sure isn't going to the riders.
Because the conversion rates are much more nuanced than the picture you make. It is not just about raw viewing figures, it is about how likely those viewers are to convert into making purchases of products and services. Like it or not those conversion rates will be higher for followers of pro golf than casual viewers of cyciing. Cycling does such a poor job at managing fan engagement across multiple medias and platforms compared to other sports.

Finally I should add, I hate golf and wish all golf courses were turned into nice parks! I think people taking up golf in middle age is a sign they have given up on life.
An astute and nuanced breakdown of the situation but the difference in numbers is so massive that it begs a number of questions.

And I think your wrong about golf. I am a lifetime golfer though I don't play much anymore. Mrs.Gib is a multi-time club champion, low handicapper. For a lot of people it is a great activity that makes a significant social contribution to their lives. For most, getting into golf it's much easier than finding the motivation to train hard on a bicycle. And safer also. More expensive than cycling unfortunately.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

AJS914
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by AJS914

Playing golf well is much harder than cycling!

Doesn't most (all?) of the broadcast/streaming money in cycling go to the race organizers like ASO and RCN? Cycling seems to have all sorts of problems where the money doesn't flow down to the teams or the riders. Teams rely on sponsors and are often a major sponsor pulling out steers them towards insolvency.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

AJS914 wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:26 am
Playing golf well is much harder than cycling!

I think this needs a fact check or at least a clarification.

I'd contend that being a competitive cyclist is more dependent on inherited physical talent than golf.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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C36
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by C36

AJS914 wrote:Playing golf well is much harder than cycling!.
Assuming it’s correct (that’s a big assumption and you manage to compare eggs and bananas) why would it be relevant?

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MDecius
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by MDecius

TobinHatesYou wrote:
AJS914 wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:26 am
Playing golf well is much harder than cycling!

I think this needs a fact check or at least a clarification.

I'd contend that being a competitive cyclist is more dependent on inherited physical talent than golf.
I’d say we can’t compare apples and oranges. Both are very hard in different ways.

I’ve competed at the state level in golf from age 12-18, stopped when I went to university, and picked up cycling at 27.

I’ll never be a competitive cyclist because I don’t have the aerobic engine or suffering tolerance. I couldn’t have been a pro golfer because I didn’t have the touch and ability to grind for pars around the greens. Could average 270 off the tee and hit 13 fairways but shooting mid to low 70s cause of a few sloppy bogeys won’t get you a scholarship or your card. Was that practice or genetic inherited ability? Don’t know but I’d say more the latter. I was thankful to have a ton of practice time and parents who could pay for lessons if I needed.

Even if we did make a reasonable comparison between the two sports, what would we do with it? The market values things often subjectively, as is very evident.
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CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

MDecius wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:45 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
AJS914 wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:26 am
Playing golf well is much harder than cycling!

I think this needs a fact check or at least a clarification.

I'd contend that being a competitive cyclist is more dependent on inherited physical talent than golf.
I’d say we can’t compare apples and oranges. Both are very hard in different ways.

I’ve competed at the state level in golf from age 12-18, stopped when I went to university, and picked up cycling at 27.

I’ll never be a competitive cyclist because I don’t have the aerobic engine or suffering tolerance. I couldn’t have been a pro golfer because I didn’t have the touch and ability to grind for pars around the greens. Could average 270 off the tee and hit 13 fairways but shooting mid to low 70s cause of a few sloppy bogeys won’t get you a scholarship or your card. Was that practice or genetic inherited ability? Don’t know but I’d say more the latter. I was thankful to have a ton of practice time and parents who could pay for lessons if I needed.

Even if we did make a reasonable comparison between the two sports, what would we do with it? The market values things often subjectively, as is very evident.
I agree with pretty much all of this. I competed at the State level as well all through high school, played to a 4 handicap. From 7th grade though high school, I basically lived at the course, if I wasn't at school I was at he course or a range. I found cycling in my mid 30's and eventually put in the time and earned State Champion stripes. Both require you to put in the time and at some point, you get to an area where more time does not equal more gains, and that is where the genetically gifted truly excel.

As for the economics of women's cycling... i feel like things are getting better. I enjoy watching the women's races and I'm seeing more and more of them being broadcast. It sucks to hear that yhe race organizer is pulling out. Hopefully someone will fill in the blanks.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

MDecius wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:45 am
The market values things often subjectively, as is very evident.
The "market" is almost by definition not subjective. It can be reduced to data (the net present value of all future cash flows). It is possible to measure relevant consumer/viewer variables and purchase behaviour, and determine ROI on advertising. Or in other words how valuable the advertising is, and therefore the value of the event to the sponsors.

Bottom line: At each sports' premier event, 34 million viewers for women's cycling vs 2 million for women's golf suggests the female cyclists are not receiving their fair share relative to the golfers. Even if those two million golf viewers are well heeled, IMO the gap in viewer numbers is just too great to favour golf as the more valuable event.

CrankAddictsRich wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:20 am
It sucks to hear that yhe race organizer is pulling out. Hopefully someone will fill in the blanks.
Men's Giro organizer RCS is taking over. Starlight is the outgoing company. They did a good job last year but are pissed that they are losing the event, so they are throwing hand grenades on the way out. It will be a mess. The route is still not even firmly set. They have pulled every resource possible to cut cost. No big climbs - it could be a real dud.
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AJS914
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by AJS914

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:58 am

I think this needs a fact check or at least a clarification.

I'd contend that being a competitive cyclist is more dependent on inherited physical talent than golf.

I'm not sure how you fact check that. My response was to those that thing golf is a bullshit sport and that all courses should be turned into parks.

I still think cycling is easier. First it's easier to do. To compete at the top level, you are either born with the aerobic engine or not. Sure there's all the hard work to develop it over time.

Golf is much harder to become proficient at even a basic level. It can take years just to get to par even if you can get there. In cycling you can get into pretty good shape in a few months of training.

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by OnTheRivet

AJS914 wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:12 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:58 am

I think this needs a fact check or at least a clarification.

I'd contend that being a competitive cyclist is more dependent on inherited physical talent than golf.
I still think cycling is easier. First it's easier to do. To compete at the top level, you are either born with the aerobic engine or not. Sure there's all the hard work to develop it over time.
This statement proves that you have never "raced" a bike. Racing at a high level in any cycling discipline requires incredible skill, on the road simply riding in a pack for hours at high speed is something most people could never do and is a reason many racers fail in the World Tour.

AJS914
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by AJS914

I raced 7 seasons including a season in France, thank you. i know what it's like to race in a large group on narrow roads in France.

But it's way easier to get there in cycling than it is to get to a proficient level in golf.

Now, feel free to tell me why golf is easier than cycling. Whether I raced or not is not an argument. It sounds like you've never really played golf.

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by spdntrxi

If you cant shot 65 or better at your local dogtrack (everyday) there is no way you make it at golf. As a very low single digit handicapper I played the US Open course(s) on the day after and seriously grinded to break 90.
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micky
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by micky

Back on topic, anyone mentioned Jumbo leaving pro sports sponsorships?

maquisard
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by maquisard

No, but good point. Jumbo have announced that they are no longer sponsoring Max Verstappen and other motorsport. I assume they will reduce or cut sponsorship in the cycling and skating teams as well. However I also believe that Visma have said they will become the main sponsor so I doubt the team is about to implode.

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