RIM BRAKE FRAMES = OBSOLETE!

[ultimobici]

I think you may have misinterpreted my post

Oops!

[UpFromOne]

I sometimes wonder if the next "thing" to generate more $$$ will be the carbon disc like F1 or Moto GP

I was thinking it could be ironically funny because IMO really what set the whole disc brake move in motion was....
Folks wanted to emulate the Pro's & ride carbon wheels.

They then complained stopping on that slippery carbon surface with "rim brake pads"
was a problem that needed a whole new heavier more expensive bike to solve instead of curing the
carbon wheel's braking surface or pad materials etc

So it could be funny if they next go carbon disc & again find a new but similar problem that of course will
require $$$ to fix History repeating itself

There is history on this site about carbon disc rotors that self-destructed.
That about ended that.

Other possible future tech includes going back to tiny hub brakes but with superconductive magnets instead of brake shoes.
The possibilities are endless for this industry, now that they are really good at obsolescence.

[wheelsONfire]

Sure carbon discs on a bicycle, as they are so needed to cope with the heat generated by all that weight as we slow from 300+ kmh repetitively.

LOL. No point on a bike.

Disc brakes offer no advantage over rim brakes when wet no matter the rim material either. Also sounds very plausible.

Really? Try descending off a mountain in the rain on discs and then see if you can descend at the same rate on rim brakes and carbon rims. I know which I’d prefer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Haha, you can as long as you're not interested in more predictable braking

[jasjas]

Of course sales were the driving factor, rim bikes reached a pinacle in the last 5 or 6 years, there was no reason to change your bike out..., disk gave that reason, shift same or more units/greater cost.

But of course there are practical benefits, so what, thats not the argument, as for no adjustments needed.. really? i 've yet to find a wheelset i can put in my mtb that doesn't need re centering of the caliper if its a different hub make and thats before we get onto rotor size

No idea what spoon brakes are, before my time but obv not yours.

Look at any historical sales plot and try to identify the rim brake dip or disc brake bump. There is none. Most people buy new stuff because they get bored of their old stuff (until it becomes vintage.)

Rim brakes reached a pinnacle in the last 5-6 years? Lol. Rim brakes have been around for 130 years, dude. Electronic shifting going mainstream was a bigger epoch a decade ago.

Rotor shims exist. Perhaps learn to use them. You can also learn to consolidate behind certain rotor sizes for shared wheelsets.

People 15 years from now: No idea what rim brakes are, before my time.
—Even most young adults born after 2000 look at rim brakes like they’re audio cassette tapes or 5.25” floppy disks.

Dude RIM BIKES not BRAKES might help if you could read the post.

Aside i don't know why you are so condescending, you suck the oxygen out of almost any thread you contribute too, your opinion isn't the only valid one, no matter how many times you keep telling us all it is.

[ultimobici]

Dude RIM BIKES not BRAKES might help if you could read the post.

Aside i don't know why you are so condescending, you suck the oxygen out of almost any thread you contribute too, your opinion isn't the only valid one, no matter how many times you keep telling us all it is.

Methinks soemone needs to go for a bike ride............

[tarmackev]

Interesting thread. I've read through most of it.
The reasons I'm mainly rim brake.
1. The cost, I'm getting some insane bargains
2. Performace (cost again really), I'm getting a top level bike for under £1000 UK
3. Looks
4. Weight
5. I have a disc Supersix but I genuinley prefer the ride of the non disc frames. As a 33 year year road cyclist I don't have any issues stopping with rim brakes on hills or in the wet.

All that being said I do have a disc frame road bike as well. If I had to have just one bike, It would probably be the disc bike. I do consider myself a rim brake guy. It's hard to argue with versatility of disc. The tyre clearence is a huge thing.

A final point, I don't think I could bring myself to buy a brand new off the peg rim brake frame.

[blutto]

== On how innovation must pave the way for the future (down tube shifters vs. ergo shifters, yes this makes sense)

Big bike need to make money. And they need to make money every year. In order for that to happen, they need to come op with something new continuously - even though we, the consumers don't need it.

The urge for discs never came from us (the consumers). Before discs I never found topics on WW with members complaining about lack of stopping power. We have always been content with the stopping power of rimbrakes.

When discs arrived, people started to complain about the stopping power of rimbrakes. Not before.

IMO the bikes of 2018/2019 - the last generation of rimbrake bikes, is where the biketech peaked. They were the best there ever was. They couldn't make rimbrake bikes any better. They were light, aero, had wide wheels and had electronic shifting. Trek integrated the cables with the last generation of rimbrake bikes.

There was nothing more you could improve. So in order for big bike to make even more money, they had to come up with something new. Something that we didn't really need. And to make sure that everyone who wanted to buy a new bike, bought a disc brake bike, they stopped developing new rimbrake bikes.

The big change happened, when the pro's finally accepted and embraced DB. From that point, there was no turning back, which in my opinion is sad. I love my rimbrake bikes, and I'm not gonna pay +10k euros for DB bikes. Fortunately a lot of other people do, which leaves a lot of 2nd hand good rimbrake bikes for the rest of os. And I'm definitely going to stock up.

I'm not sure where you were when carbon wheels came about but I distinctly remember people complaining how bad the braking is on them constantly, especially the early ones. All the way to the point where disc brakes came about. We actually only started to get carbon wheels with textured brake tracks and even decent braking when disc brakes started to make an appearance. There was discussion about finding brake pads that made them at least tolerable, much like there is of brake pads that don't squel with disc brakes nowadays. I also remember how people complained how those "peak bike" bikes with integrated rim brakes, under bb brakes, etc. sucked as brakes. I remember discussions about rim delaminations. I remember the latex blowouts. But sure looking back at it with rose tinted glasses and forgetting all the downsides makes rim brakes seem much better deal than they were. If rim brakes truly were as good as rim brake truthers are making them to be disc brakes wouldn't have blown up in a matter of couple years like they did.

...funny but disc brakes for road bikes "came about " in the latter part of the 1970's....so why did they become such a hugely popular fashion item only recently ?....

Cheers

[blutto]

1) I'm not sure where you were when carbon wheels came about but I distinctly remember people complaining how bad the braking is on them constantly, especially the early ones. All the way to the point where disc brakes came about. We actually only started to get carbon wheels with textured brake tracks and even decent braking when disc brakes started to make an appearance. There was discussion about finding brake pads that made them at least tolerable, much like there is of brake pads that don't squel with disc brakes nowadays.

2) I also remember how people complained how those "peak bike" bikes with integrated rim brakes, under bb brakes, etc. sucked as brakes. I remember discussions about rim delaminations.

3) I remember the latex blowouts. But sure looking back at it with rose tinted glasses and forgetting all the downsides makes rim brakes seem much better deal than they were.

4) If rim brakes truly were as good as rim brake truthers are making them to be disc brakes wouldn't have blown up in a matter of couple years like they did.

1) I was right here. And you're right, when carbon rims were a new tech, they had their problems - just like everything else new has had it problems. The problems were not related to the brakes though, they were related to the rims and the tech behind the rims. Aluminum rims worked just fine. But even though the rims had their problems, they evolved and got better.

2) Sure, integrated brakes - most of them sucks. That was also big bike trying to make something new for us to throw money at. Building light bike parts was another thing they wanted us to throw money at, and then weightweenies surfaced.

3) Latex blowouts might have been a problem. Not sure it was a big problem though. It isn't a problem when not riding in the mountains. Besides that, everyone rides tubeless - again tech has evolved.

4) As Tymon has mentioned before, DB didn't blow up RB. Big bike blew up RB - they found a new product with the prospect of making a lot more money than they could on RB bikes, now we have to throw money at new frames, wheels and groupsets. With carbon rims at least didn't have to throw money at frames and groupsets.

This is why I don't find RB bikes obsolete. They are still as good as before. That said, I'm sad that they don't do R&D on RB bikes anymore. They could at least let the R&D from DB bikes trickle down to RB bikes.

....about that wish for that trickling down thingee....they may already have, its called a gravel bike, looks sotra like a road bike but has the handling akin to a mountain bike....maybe they should have called it mtb lite....

....but methinhks that even if we do get that trickling down thingee happening for strictly road it probably won't produce the sweet handling that rim brake frame design allows ( that would probably require a major re-design from anything disc centric...and moulds are expensive etc etc bottom line etc etc quarterlies etc etc ( see reduction of availables sizes as a direct consequence)... )...like the economic theory version of that idea it will end up more like another expensive golden shower, errr, trickling down thingee that answers to no real need save cosmetic ( looks like a rim bike but still handles like a disc bike....and btw handling does seem kinda like a prerequisite in a precision tool like a high end bike ) and of course, the most important thing, the gluttonous bottom line maw...

...so yeah, given the current manufacturing /business model the rim brake frame is kinda sorta on its last legs....obsolete ?...well maybe in this way ""we're trying to stimulate the business by obsoleting last year's designs" absolutely yes !....but still a very viable/desirable design route thru which to build a great bike and not obsolete in the more standard usage of the word ( in much the same way the soon to be obsolete sedan or sports car provides a much more most bettah driving experience than a SUV/half-ton truck....and yeah the SUV/truck is the most popular choice with the buying public but its still a truck...)...

....bottom line, seems you can indeed sell freezers to Eskimos, assuming of course that you can find the right kind of Eskimo, and they weren't supposed to be born every day, were they ? ...

Cheers

[Singular]

A final point, I don't think I could bring myself to buy a brand new off the peg rim brake frame.

There you have it. Why don't manufacturers offer more rim brake bikes/frames?

Because not even rim brake proponents are buying them.

[flying]

A final point, I don't think I could bring myself to buy a brand new off the peg rim brake frame.

There you have it. Why don't manufacturers offer more rim brake bikes/frames?

Because not even rim brake proponents are buying them.

Yeah but look at the fear based reasoning...not logical at all.
But hey to each their own buy what you like & ride that is the actual point of cycling

[wheelsONfire]

I think the reason people don't buy rim brake bikes NEW, is because the mangling about disc brakes have made it this way.
People are scared they do something stupid and they will suffer regret if they buy into something the industry want extinct.

When i asked for disc brake bikes 15 years ago, i got this explained!

I couldn't handle a bike that was why i needed disc brakes.
I asked for a tractor. I don't even remember all crap, but it was loads....

It was so many people word-puking all over.
All these guys use disc brakes today.

When i talked to german dealers and AX Lightness none of them believed in gravel bikes. None!
I told AX they should go forth with the Prototype, a project they shelved.
If they had, they have had one of the first super light real gravel bikes.
Shit, i even asked if i could buy the prototype

I don't even care about debating rim and disc today as it's totally meaningless.

I just ordered RED AXS. but to be honest. I am not at all happy about it.
I just did because i am worried there's no more rim brake options coming anymore.
I hope Sram keep an inventory, but i'm afraid they might do as with Etap.

[tymon_tm]

this topic is a merry go round. people don't buy rim cause there's literally nothing to buy. no major producer offered a new rim bike in years now. new wheels are disc only. we all know it. this is a done deal and pointing at some leftovers doesn't change a thing.

i suppose we.might shut this topic down as well, there's no point in repeating same arguments over and over again only to hear "it's customers fault"

[wheelsONfire]

this topic is a merry go round. people don't buy rim cause there's literally nothing to buy. no major producer offered a new rim bike in years now. new wheels are disc only. we all know it. this is a done deal and pointing at some leftovers doesn't change a thing.

i suppose we.might shut this topic down as well, there's no point in repeating same arguments over and over again only to hear "it's customers fault"

There is a reason for disc brakes, wet and rain. For dry weather rim brakes are more than fine.
Yupp, you're right, most want disc brakes even those who called me an idiot 15 years ago.
It's evolution!
It doesn't matter what individuals think, feel or believe. But for sure disc brakes can evolve and be better.
I've already bought two new disc brake calipers and i have never managed to destroy a rim brake caliper.
Anyway, it is what it is, if we like it or not doesn't matter anymore. The ship has sailed as you say...
Froome still complains though

[tymon_tm]

...and it's the only thing I respect him for ;D

[wheelsONfire]

...and it's the only thing I respect him for ;D

If i would go for disc brakes, i would probably keep mechanical and go for Juin Tech or Growtac Equal calipers and similar routing to my current bike.
Not integrated that is....