Is anyone completely done with these absurd prices?

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

Moderators: robbosmans, Moderator Team

OnTheRivet
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm

by OnTheRivet

misteryellow wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:17 am
blaugrana wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:18 pm
Cycling used to be a blue collar sports but it has seemed to turn into a nasty 'look at what I can afford' mentality. Yet, everyone wears the same stuff..the same S-Works bike, the same Oakley glasses.

At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old geezer this is my take also. It's also why I think ebikes are becoming popular with younger able bodied people. The image of cycling atracts them but "it's too hard" so they gravitate towards ebikes. They can spend a lot of money and show off and pretend they ride a bike.

Orbital
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:52 am
Location: Pitt Meadows, BC

by Orbital

What’s going on here? There’s far too many sensible people posting here.

This season I replaced my 2014 SS Evo, that I’ve been riding since new, with a nice used 2016 Parlee Altum just to accommodate slightly wider rubber. I love looking at new bikes and tech and watching YouTube vids and racing and everything involved with the hobby. But at one point a lot of the older stuff was latest and greatest too. To my legs they agree.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



TobinHatesYou
Posts: 10101
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I don’t see any young people on e-road bikes. I see plenty of e-cargo bikes, e-commuters and e-MTB, and that’s not because the sport is too hard for able-bodied people. e-MTBs are effectively personal shuttles to the top of the mountain so you can get a couple more downhill runs in, or connect between two trails. e-road bikes? The only one I see regularly on club rides is ridden by the 80-year-old founder. I’m okay with that.

As for my own situation. I’m about to get my Emonda repainted rather than getting a new bike. It’s all about the paint. I’ll pounce on an extraordinarily good deal if I see one though.

warthog101
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

Somehat related but a bit off topic.
Taiwan is bicycle manufacturing HQ.
China appear determined to retake it by whatever means.
Of course the price of bicycles is a minor side issue to the terrible human cost, but I can see it happening in the not too distant future.
At least a blockade is very very possible
I am no politics expert or take any interest in military capability, but it is not good from what I see.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 10101
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

A local shop is going out of business and they had two 2023 Cervelo S5s w/Force AXS for sale today at $6750 (25% off.) I might have pulled the trigger if I didn’t have to put another $700 into getting the right length stem and right width bars for it.

User avatar
LouisN
Posts: 3372
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Location: Canada

by LouisN

I can't help but think about the comparison with wines.
The basic products is what will be the producer's bread and butter. They produce millions of bottles, and sell for a few $$.
The "Premier Cru", well, especially for some prestigious names, will sell for thousands a single bottle. These products are bought by "wealthy enthusiasts".
One has to wonder how the mark ups % are divided between low end and high end products.
Not so long ago, I was used to see big mark ups on lower end stuff, and for expensive high end, the mark up % tends to diminish.
This principle is put out the window now with these "special goods"( I don't even know in what category to put themin. Jewellery ? Artwork 😂? Collectibles lol ?).
Sure, the "super high end whatever special name and limited production" frameset sells for $10000. a piece. But it's still some textile, resin, a few hours to assemble parts, and already paid molds and machines (ovens, vacuums, etc...). And, please, you fashion victims, don't tell me about quality control, and how they scrap so many of these jewels to produce only one valuable one :lol: .
What is surprising is now an "entry level" road race bike from big brands sells for very high $$$. Example, a Tarmac SL7 Comp with Sram Rival AXS sells for $5500. :shock: And is an absolute pig with lower end carbon, boat anchor dirt cheap wheels and stupid gravel cassette :? .
That brings the comparison back to wines. Bordeaux or Bourgogne region wines are way overpriced for what most of them bring in a bottle because of branding and marketing.
And as people mentioned previously, if the product sells....

Louis :)

User avatar
C36
Posts: 1690
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

It obviously affects how I consume. I can look back to 20 years of high end bikes and I am more and more using either preowned (and I like the hunt), pro teams relations (but irregular supply) or experimenting with new options (hyper wheels being one example).

Rationally I can mentally justify a 300€ Darimo seatpost, made in Spain but not a 4 or 5k frame officially imported for less than 1k (case of one of my frames that was warrantied).

blaugrana
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 9:49 pm

by blaugrana

C36 wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:06 pm
Rationally I can mentally justify a 300€ Darimo seatpost, made in Spain but not a 4 or 5k frame officially imported for less than 1k (case of one of my frames that was warrantied).
Agree 100%, even though I don't own any Darimo products. But they make them to order, which has several advantages (they can make custom seat posts to fit lots of proprietary shapes, or add material if the rider is heavy). And if you try to do a very rough estimation of the associated costs and hours of labor required, the price does seem to make sense. 5.000€ mass produced frames, however, are a different story. People will justify it because of raising shipping costs, many middle men who need to make a profit, pro team sponsoring... But if the only way to break even selling bicycles is to have these absurd markups, then the problem is simply that the logistics and distribution in this industry are terrible inefficient.

User avatar
nickf
Posts: 1216
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:34 pm

by nickf

blaugrana wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:48 pm
C36 wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:06 pm
Rationally I can mentally justify a 300€ Darimo seatpost, made in Spain but not a 4 or 5k frame officially imported for less than 1k (case of one of my frames that was warrantied).
Agree 100%, even though I don't own any Darimo products. But they make them to order, which has several advantages (they can make custom seat posts to fit lots of proprietary shapes, or add material if the rider is heavy). And if you try to do a very rough estimation of the associated costs and hours of labor required, the price does seem to make sense. 5.000€ mass produced frames, however, are a different story. People will justify it because of raising shipping costs, many middle men who need to make a profit, pro team sponsoring... But if the only way to break even selling bicycles is to have these absurd markups, then the problem is simply that the logistics and distribution in this industry are terrible inefficient.
But even at a Trek corporate store, they cut out the middle man, the new Madone is still $13k. The whole thing is a joke. I personally see no value in any of the mass-produced carbon bikes hanging on the walls at the local shop. It baffles me that people actually buy those things. But as long as people continue to buy them they continue to fuel the flame. These evnt organizers are also cashing in. In some cases north of $200 to go ride your bike for a few hours on open public roads so you can claim a "free beer and burrito" at the end of the ride. And they sell out in a matter of hours.

usr
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

ultimobici wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:38 am
No one is forced to have carbon wheels, fully integrated cabling or the like, just as car buyers aren’t forced to have paddle shifters & carbon ceramic brakes.
There's a difference though, part of the appeal of cycling was that people without extraordinary income used to be able, with a certain amount of irrational sacrifice, have maxed out gear. That pattern has never existed for cars. If the same amount of sacrifice (measured in months of median income perhaps?) will only get you "good enough, but here are ten upselling options you might like", a certain part of the appeal gets lost. And it's not just the highest end, it starts earlier: spending more to get third-tier instead of fourth tier feels very different from spending more to get 13th tier instead of 14th tier. Long term the industry might be very well harm it's most lucrative parts (but it's also very most possible that the age of "1500 Ultegra" comes back, e.g. by all other inflation closing the gap to 12000 bikes)

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 10101
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

usr wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:02 pm
ultimobici wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:38 am
No one is forced to have carbon wheels, fully integrated cabling or the like, just as car buyers aren’t forced to have paddle shifters & carbon ceramic brakes.
There's a difference though, part of the appeal of cycling was that people without extraordinary income used to be able, with a certain amount of irrational sacrifice, have maxed out gear. That pattern has never existed for cars. If the same amount of sacrifice (measured in months of median income perhaps?) will only get you "good enough, but here are ten upselling options you might like", a certain part of the appeal gets lost. And it's not just the highest end, it starts earlier: spending more to get third-tier instead of fourth tier feels very different from spending more to get 13th tier instead of 14th tier. Long term the industry might be very well harm it's most lucrative parts (but it's also very most possible that the age of "1500 Ultegra" comes back, e.g. by all other inflation closing the gap to 12000 bikes)
Irrational sacrifice ultimately doesn’t matter and I don’t think your assertion is true of the average income earner anyway. In 2015 the the average American made $26000. The 2015 Madone 7.9 cost $11550.

These days you can still buy a very good bicycle for $2500. In many ways it will be better than a much more expensive bike from a decade ago. Who cares if it’s labeled 105 instead of Ultegra?

usr
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

"Who cares if it’s labeled 105 instead of Ultegra?"

That's basically my entire point: I believe that it matters more than people like to admit, particularly to themselves.

User avatar
eucalyptus
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:51 am
Location: Sweden

by eucalyptus

What I do not understand is the +5000 Euro/USD price tags on carbon frames. Sure, they are made of high modulus carbon jada jada jada. But still.

Basso makes both cheap and expensive frame, ALL made IN HOUSE in ITALY!

I bought my Basso Palta, handmade in Italy with T700/T800, so no High modulus fancy stuff, but a crazy robust and wellmade frame (I scraped the paint) and it is a work of art underneath. I paid full MSRP ~2000 USD/EURO for that thing.

My frame is made in Italy for that price, so obviously it is possible to manufacture in Europe and not charge S-works SL7 prices.

How can any frame from Taiwan/China/Asia cost almost 3 times as much as something made in Italy? Don't tell me high modulus carbon is gonna make up for that 3 times the cost, or maybe 10 times the cost as labor in Taiwan is not the same as in Italy (Europe).

User avatar
nickf
Posts: 1216
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:34 pm

by nickf

Gotta pay for that marketing budget. Many of these larger companies have great warranties also, consumers demanded it, that's rolled into the price also.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



User avatar
LouisN
Posts: 3372
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Location: Canada

by LouisN

eucalyptus wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:32 am
What I do not understand is the +5000 Euro/USD price tags on carbon frames. Sure, they are made of high modulus carbon jada jada jada. But still.

Basso makes both cheap and expensive frame, ALL made IN HOUSE in ITALY!

I bought my Basso Palta, handmade in Italy with T700/T800, so no High modulus fancy stuff, but a crazy robust and wellmade frame (I scraped the paint) and it is a work of art underneath. I paid full MSRP ~2000 USD/EURO for that thing.

My frame is made in Italy for that price, so obviously it is possible to manufacture in Europe and not charge S-works SL7 prices.

How can any frame from Taiwan/China/Asia cost almost 3 times as much as something made in Italy? Don't tell me high modulus carbon is gonna make up for that 3 times the cost, or maybe 10 times the cost as labor in Taiwan is not the same as in Italy (Europe).
I don't want to burst your bubble, but everybody knows Italy's laws allow for Chinese/Taiwanese made goods to be labeled "Made in Italy" as long as some % of the finishing process is done inside the country...

Louis :)

Post Reply