2020 Pro thread

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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dolophonic
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by dolophonic

Cycomanic wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:30 pm
jever98 wrote:+1 on feeling very uneasy. TBH, I'm quite surprised by the lack of suspicion around here regarding the performance. I guess as long as the show is good, people want to look the other way...
This is what Stefan Schumacher (one of Giannettis former riders) had to say about Pogacars ride up the Col de Peyresourde:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... %2As%2As-R

That ride raised a lot more eyebrows for me than the TT yesterday.

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Yes indeed, when i heard he broke the record set by some seriously enhanced humans it defenatly seemed special. :beerchug:

by Weenie


bilwit
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by bilwit

Dumoulin even raising an eyebrow about it:
"My values were World Championship-worthy values. That's great to see," he said. "That's why I was all the more surprised that Pogačar was 1:21 faster.

"I'm sure I can tell you I'm never going to reach that level. I may be able to win one per cent somewhere, but not five per cent."
https://www.cyclingnews.com/amp/news/to ... my-career/

:wink:

Pierre86
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by Pierre86

bilwit wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:34 am
Dumoulin even raising an eyebrow about it:
"My values were World Championship-worthy values. That's great to see," he said. "That's why I was all the more surprised that Pogačar was 1:21 faster.

"I'm sure I can tell you I'm never going to reach that level. I may be able to win one per cent somewhere, but not five per cent."
https://www.cyclingnews.com/amp/news/to ... my-career/

:wink:
Wout the sprinter outclimbed Domoulin as well, no eyebrow raising there?
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tymon_tm
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by tymon_tm

so maybe Pog went a little bit crazy with his "sporting liquids" - so what, give him a break, he's young, eager to win.. perhaps too much but that's pro sport, isn't it. he's not the first one, nore the last. I'm sure next year both him and the team will know better and go easy on the diet

my only postulate regarding doping at this point is: give back Armstrong his 7 wins.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

That's not necessary.

jever98
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by jever98

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:41 am
so maybe Pog went a little bit crazy with his "sporting liquids" - so what, give him a break, he's young, eager to win.. perhaps too much but that's pro sport, isn't it. he's not the first one, nore the last. I'm sure next year both him and the team will know better and go easy on the diet

my only postulate regarding doping at this point is: give back Armstrong his 7 wins.
You should have lived in ancient Rome, then you would have gotten your full dose of panem et circenses (bread and circus), including beheadings.

Why not stop checking for motors, either? So much more fun if they alpe d'huez at 40kph. Plus you only have to watch half as long, either...
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tymon_tm
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by tymon_tm

Kjetil wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:53 am
That's not necessary.
or is it? every single time an *extraordinary* performance happens, there's this endless innuendo it couldn't have happened without doping. turns out this DS has that history, that power profile fits this, even fellow pros, like Big Tom today, suggest foul play and riding dirty (or as a sceptic would say: dirtier). let's accept pro sport for what it really is, leave doping for authorities and their random, one-in-a-thousand busts.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

jever98
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by jever98

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:41 am
so maybe Pog went a little bit crazy with his "sporting liquids" - so what, give him a break, he's young, eager to win.. perhaps too much but that's pro sport, isn't it. he's not the first one, nore the last. I'm sure next year both him and the team will know better and go easy on the diet

my only postulate regarding doping at this point is: give back Armstrong his 7 wins.
You should have lived in ancient Rome, then you would have gotten your full dose of panem et circenses (bread and circus), including beheadings.

Why not stop checking for motors, either? So much more fun if they alpe d'huez at 40kph. Plus you only have to watch half as long, either...
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DeRosa69
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by DeRosa69

Sounds like guys on ww knows something about Pogacar than the rest of the world doesnt


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robbosmans
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by robbosmans

Pogacar just is a talent, his numbers are good but there are more people that can match those numbers, looking at Remco, Bernal, Porte etc.

If they where telling me I was winning the tour I would be flying to, he didn’t have a bike computer either so not a calculated effort.

The TT was also prepared in July by the team, they tested everything and knew that if the gap to first wasn’t too big they could win the tour here

Dumoulin was also climbing on his heavy TT bike, he would have been a lot faster on his road bike

My rant is over, these new kids are coming in hot, a new era is here

Unniti
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by Unniti

When you look at it this TT wasn't some inhuman effort. We see minute gaps even between good TT guys on flat courses, especially on a third week of a GT. Even Tom has put over a minute on guys like Froome on flat TT courses. It was much more about far superior recon and preparation from UAE compared to TJV. Jumbo didn't even seem to know if switching bikes is faster or not. Tom lost a minute to Porte and 40 seconds to WVA on the climb, were those performances also inhuman.

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tymon_tm
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by tymon_tm

for the sake of everyone involved, I keep my fingers crossed his results stand.

it's true that "new kids on the block" aren't taking any hostages. they sprint, climb, escape, tt.. you name it - often all in one. it kinda makes me hopeful that "specialization" becomes a thing of the past, and modern champs will be true allrounders, like WVA for instance. I also hope GTs will be shaped accordingly, with more "classic" stages, where anything can happen.
kkibbler wrote: WW remembers.

jever98
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by jever98

robbosmans wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:54 am
Pogacar just is a talent, his numbers are good but there are more people that can match those numbers, looking at Remco, Bernal, Porte etc.

If they where telling me I was winning the tour I would be flying to, he didn’t have a bike computer either so not a calculated effort.

The TT was also prepared in July by the team, they tested everything and knew that if the gap to first wasn’t too big they could win the tour here

Dumoulin was also climbing on his heavy TT bike, he would have been a lot faster on his road bike

My rant is over, these new kids are coming in hot, a new era is here
What makes you so certain he's "just a talent"? A lot of different points suggest things are fishy:
- This tour was reported to super fast. Bardet, whilst still going well, said he was breaking all his records. It's not that the level was low.
- In the pyrenees, Pogacar beats an EPO era record on a long climb.
- He beats the competition by a country mile and sets another record on the planche des belles filles, including a stop for a bike change, without any drafting
- For years, no one has gotten close to EPO era records: none of the 21 fastest times up Alpe d'huez are from the current era (all 1995-2006). Pantani's record is reported as 36:50. For comparison: the fastest current era rider was Quintana at 39:22 (2015), the next fastest (other than Quintana) were Froome and Valverde at 40:42 - almost 4 minutes slower than Pantani. Quintana was 2:32 slower.
- His team managers have a more than chequered history in terms of doping
- His rise has been super fast

I don't have hard proof, but unfortunately, in cycling, to date, when things looked too good to be true, they were. I had the same conversations during the Armstrong era, at the time no one wanted to acknowledge things were fishy, but came up with all sorts of explanations that didn't ring true.
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robbosmans
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by robbosmans

jever98 wrote:
robbosmans wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:54 am
Pogacar just is a talent, his numbers are good but there are more people that can match those numbers, looking at Remco, Bernal, Porte etc.

If they where telling me I was winning the tour I would be flying to, he didn’t have a bike computer either so not a calculated effort.

The TT was also prepared in July by the team, they tested everything and knew that if the gap to first wasn’t too big they could win the tour here

Dumoulin was also climbing on his heavy TT bike, he would have been a lot faster on his road bike

My rant is over, these new kids are coming in hot, a new era is here
What makes you so certain he's "just a talent"? A lot of different points suggest things are fishy:
- This tour was reported to super fast. Bardet, whilst still going well, said he was breaking all his records. It's not that the level was low.
- In the pyrenees, Pogacar beats an EPO era record on a long climb.
- He beats the competition by a country mile and sets another record on the planche des belles filles, including a stop for a bike change, without any drafting
- For years, no one has gotten close to EPO era records: none of the 21 fastest times up Alpe d'huez are from the current era (all 1995-2006). Pantani's record is reported as 36:50. For comparison: the fastest current era rider was Quintana at 39:22 (2015), the next fastest (other than Quintana) were Froome and Valverde at 40:42 - almost 4 minutes slower than Pantani. Quintana was 2:32 slower.
- His team managers have a more than chequered history in terms of doping
- His rise has been super fast

I don't have hard proof, but unfortunately, in cycling, to date, when things looked too good to be true, they were. I had the same conversations during the Armstrong era, at the time no one wanted to acknowledge things were fishy, but came up with all sorts of explanations that didn't ring true.
Let me tell you the story on how he got discovered, the scout that found him was watching a race in Slovenia and there was this one kid who was hanging of the back of the peloton (this kid was clearly younger than the rest), the scout asked the race organization to take the kid out of the race, he found it embarrassing. But the race organization said that the kid had just lapped the field, this kid was Pogacar

by Weenie


jever98
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by jever98

That's a cute story, but not really relevant. There are similar stories about Bernal or Sagan. It's no wonder that the world's top talents do well in junior races. And I don't deny that he seems to have bucket loads of talent.

What I'm saying is that in a sport that was jacked up in performance in a major way by doping and in which tighter controls seemed to slow things down over the past years, a return to jacked up performance levels, even beating those, is very suspicious. Even more so if the rise is stratospheric and under the management of a suspicious manager.
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