Enve 4.5 vs Zipp 353

[LedZeppelin007]

I’m currently running a BMC Teammachine SLR01 One with SRAM Red (now last gen), 48/35t, 10-33t gearing, most of the stack cut down, and weighing approximately 7.3kg with Dura Ace pedals and Garmin mount.

It came with 353s. I like 353s, find them great to climb and descend on, and the Cognition hub actually does help when coasting. On them I have some 30mm Pirelli P-Zero Race Speed Cores (the new ones from Italy). The tires roll reasonably well, are comfortable, and very grippy. I’m running them at 60psi and weigh about 180 pounds right now at 6’3” (should be down another 10 pounds soon). Just to complete the picture, my FTP (actual 1 hour power, not a 20-minute conversion of ramp test) is 330 watts give or take 10 watts on the day.

I have a mixed history with Enve, but continue to believe that the 4.5 is the finest wheel ever brought to market by a major manufacturer when considering weight, aerodynamics, and comfort. The new hubs are likely an upgrade on what was already pretty decent, I would think.

I have a couple of fondos coming up, which got me to thinking a bit more about performance.

The 353s are, IMHO, a very minor aero advantage. I’d actually like to know how many watts might be saved aerodynamically at 20-25mph on the flats. I’m guessing it’s not much more than 2-5 watts. They are very comfortable, though, and light at 1300g. The Pirellis are pigs at 300g, but I’m confident they won’t puncture if I do my job. I’ve never had a ride stopping puncture in the tread of a tubeless tire. Only the sidewalls.

On the flip side, the Enves are very fast. I’ve had a couple of them and I believe that I can feel the aero gains, which means that are likely in excess of 10 watts, particularly at certain yaw angles. The new 4.5s are weighing in at 1420g. Add in some Enve Raceday tires (which make me a little nervous given the tread depth, but, like I said, I’ve never had a showstopping puncture in the tread). At 20-25mph, how many watts saved would you guys expect 4.5s vs 353s?

I would also be getting roughly 10-12 watts of rolling resistance benefit.

In fact, my suspicion is that there would be about a 20 watt total difference in aero drag and rolling resistance between my current set up and the 4.5s with the Race Day tires. The Enve set up would also be lighter since the Race Day tires come in at 85g lighter per tire than my Pirellis. The main concerns would be punctures and cross-winds, but in my experience, the 4.5s are well-behaved in cross winds and aren’t far off the 353s there.

I’m trying to be good and not tinker with a great setup. However, a handful of watts would be very nice.


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[mikehhhhhhh]

A very piecemeal way of applying data to this would be the hunt sub50 testing in their whitepaper: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0686/ ... 1706711205

Now it doesn't test the 353nsw, but there's an Enve test that suggests the 353nsw actually outperforms the 454nsw with 28mm+ tyres. But even if you put the 353 between that 454 and the 303, there's a couple of watts to the 4.5, except around that 15deg mark where it might be around 6w? That's at 45km/h / 28mph, it'll be much lower at 20mph.

Presonally, I'd put the 29mm Raceday tyre on the 353s and be done with it. Although, money no object, the 4.5 does look like a good compromise if you don't care about the 100 grams.

FWIW, I run 353nsw day to day, big days and in the mountains and Rapide CLs for faster, flatter events.

[LedZeppelin007]

A very piecemeal way of applying data to this would be the hunt sub50 testing in their whitepaper: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0686/ ... 1706711205

Now it doesn't test the 353nsw, but there's an Enve test that suggests the 353nsw actually outperforms the 454nsw with 28mm+ tyres. But even if you put the 353 between that 454 and the 303, there's a couple of watts to the 4.5, except around that 15deg mark where it might be around 6w? That's at 45km/h / 28mph, it'll be much lower at 20mph.

Presonally, I'd put the 29mm Raceday tyre on the 353s and be done with it. Although, money no object, the 4.5 does look like a good compromise if you don't care about the 100 grams.

FWIW, I run 353nsw day to day, big days and in the mountains and Rapide CLs for faster, flatter events.

Thanks man, that’s helpful.

I think part of it is that I miss the whooshing sound of the Enves lol.

I try not to buy into the feel aspect of things, especially when we are talking about a handful of watts, but, to my memory the 4.5s felt noticeably faster than the 353s. We all know how reliable feeling is, though.

My typical riding position (hands on hoods, elbows slightly bent, normal kit, Kask Elemento) gives me somewhere between .32 and .35 CdA, so I’m not exactly setting aero records. My tests using the Aerosensor haven’t given me enough reliable data to say, but I’d estimate .3-.32 for drops and .29-.31 for aero hoods.


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[mikehhhhhhh]

I'd argue that feel good ride feel is worth more than any marginal aero gain for the average casual rider.

I feel similar when I pop the Rapides on, gives me that little motivation to push a bit harder.

Sounds like we have similar results aero wise - mywindsock puts me 0.3-0.33 day to day on the 353a and 0.28 in a 10 mile TT (aero hoods) on the Rapides.

[LedZeppelin007]

Not going to matter a lot, I’m afraid. Just had a catastrophic blow-out on a technical downhill and somehow managed to not have a life-altering accident. Was running Pirelli P-Zero Race TLR Speedcore 30c at 61-63psi. Overcooked a switchback a little had some oncoming traffic had to hit the brakes and lean in a little harder to correct.

BOOM! Like a gunshot. The tire completely blew off the rim.

I could hear carbon on pavement. Must’ve been completely automatic, because I don’t remember how I saved it. I’m an average to descent descender, not going to pretend that it was a pure skill thing, think it was a lot of luck.








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[EtoDemerzel]

ENVE would be, for me, easy choice over Zipps for the hubs alone.

**and I seriously doubt your estimated gain in watts. I bet it would be negligible

[Jaisen]

Not going to matter a lot, I’m afraid. Just had a catastrophic blow-out on a technical downhill and somehow managed to not have a life-altering accident. Was running Pirelli P-Zero Race TLR Speedcore 30c at 61-63psi. Overcooked a switchback a little had some oncoming traffic had to hit the brakes and lean in a little harder to correct.

BOOM! Like a gunshot. The tire completely blew off the rim.

I could hear carbon on pavement. Must’ve been completely automatic, because I don’t remember how I saved it. I’m an average to descent descender, not going to pretend that it was a pure skill thing, think it was a lot of luck.








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Glad you are ok and good thing that didn't happen on the front wheel.

[spdntrxi]

I'd chose Enve over Zipp... but damn these 353 seems to in all sorts of bad luck. My racing buddy has had them for I think 2 maybe 3 seasons now.. always uses 28mm tires, recently smacked a pothole during a race and broke the rim beyond repair. (tire stayed on)

[6fu]

Wanted to reply earlier that you should use the chance to ditch hookless wheels altogether and search for alternative but refrained from it to not get scolded by hookless police. But damn, hookles wheels be doing hookless things. Glad you are ok and that matters the most!

I suggest you check out at new campy Boras or fulcrum speeds, they look promising in that price range.

[spdntrxi]

not hookless police but have been using them since 2018 or so. Lots of friends use them as well. Only blowoff I know of is my friend picking his bike up from the LBS and it blew off in the boot of his SUV and made a mess. Over inflation for sure, since he checked the other wheel and it was like 85psi or something.

[Jaisen]

not hookless police but have been using them since 2018 or so. Lots of friends use them as well. Only blowoff I know of is my friend picking his bike up from the LBS and it blew off in the boot of his SUV and made a mess. Over inflation for sure, since he checked the other wheel and it was like 85psi or something.

This poster had tirewiz sensors on and at the time of the blowout his pressure was 66 psi, perfectly inline with max pressure limits for those tires and wheels. Clearly not overinflated and clearly not a user error. The Garmin Varia camera feed also shows the road surface was smooth with no impacts occurring.

[spdntrxi]

not hookless police but have been using them since 2018 or so. Lots of friends use them as well. Only blowoff I know of is my friend picking his bike up from the LBS and it blew off in the boot of his SUV and made a mess. Over inflation for sure, since he checked the other wheel and it was like 85psi or something.

This poster had tirewiz sensors on and at the time of the blowout his pressure was 66 psi, perfectly inline with max pressure limits for those tires and wheels. Clearly not overinflated and clearly not a user error. The Garmin Varia camera feed also shows the road surface was smooth with no impacts occurring.

was I talking about this poster ? I think not. I get yeah though... 353s , glad I dont own them.

[LedZeppelin007]

Not going to matter a lot, I’m afraid. Just had a catastrophic blow-out on a technical downhill and somehow managed to not have a life-altering accident. Was running Pirelli P-Zero Race TLR Speedcore 30c at 61-63psi. Overcooked a switchback a little had some oncoming traffic had to hit the brakes and lean in a little harder to correct.

BOOM! Like a gunshot. The tire completely blew off the rim.

I could hear carbon on pavement. Must’ve been completely automatic, because I don’t remember how I saved it. I’m an average to descent descender, not going to pretend that it was a pure skill thing, think it was a lot of luck.








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Glad you are ok and good thing that didn't happen on the front wheel.

If it were the front, I’d be typing this from the hospital. If lucky.


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[Rfeigen]

Not going to matter a lot, I’m afraid. Just had a catastrophic blow-out on a technical downhill and somehow managed to not have a life-altering accident. Was running Pirelli P-Zero Race TLR Speedcore 30c at 61-63psi. Overcooked a switchback a little had some oncoming traffic had to hit the brakes and lean in a little harder to correct.

BOOM! Like a gunshot. The tire completely blew off the rim.

I could hear carbon on pavement. Must’ve been completely automatic, because I don’t remember how I saved it. I’m an average to descent descender, not going to pretend that it was a pure skill thing, think it was a lot of luck.








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Glad you are ok and good thing that didn't happen on the front wheel.

Glad your OK, mind if I ask how big of a guy are you (61PSI) and any idea how fast you might have been going?

[TobinHatesYou]

Glad your OK, mind if I ask how big of a guy are you (61PSI) and any idea how fast you might have been going?

Regardless of the answer, the pressure inside the tire would not have changed significantly. A tire on a descent is being air cooled. The tire would hit higher pressures leaned against the exterior wall of a cafe in direct sunlight.