Craft Racing wheels - carbon spokes 1180g

[toxin]

Im pretty sure most serious rim manufacturers these days add reinforcement on a case by case basis on the same mold depending on the planned spoke arrangement

[Nickldn]

^ You hit the nail on the head, adding reinforcement to a rim from a standard general purpose mold results in a less optimum product. Better to customise the mold and layup from the ground up to fit best with the spokes and other requirements.

My understanding is CRW rims are developed in house and are not off the shelf.

Hopefully Joe can confirm.

[ChinaCycling]

^ You hit the nail on the head, adding reinforcement to a rim from a standard general purpose mold results in a less optimum product. Better to customise the mold and layup from the ground up to fit best with the spokes and other requirements.

My understanding is CRW rims are developed in house and are not off the shelf.

Hopefully Joe can confirm.

Correct. Every CRW CS rim (and I think the others in their lineip, but not 100% sure.) are their own private mold. All the layups are also deisgned by CRW themselves, as the boss of CRW used to work doing the layups at a local factory that were OEM'ing for a very big brand.

Most brands use off the shelf "open" molds + layups.
Some brands design their own mold, but let the factory take care of the layup.
Very few brands (especially Chinese) will do the layup themselves too.

Now, some brands may share the mold between their steel spoked and carbon spoked wheels, Nothing inherently wrong with that, as I don't think there's a huge difference in the shape of the rim... if any. But, you don't know which brands are A) Using that mold with the existing layup and just drilling it differently. B) Using the same layup, but just adding a little bit of reinforcement around the new spoke hole positions. C) Totally reworking the layup with the carbon spokes in mind.

Also, bare in mind that the factories always want the least effort posisble. IE: if they can get away without re-doing the layup, they will. and also, the factory wants the least amount of customer complaints and QC failures (customer here meaning the brand) so they will engineer the layup in their favour. Making a rim that passes QC easier, not neccersarily one that performs the best. Only brands that are stipulating their own layups can really tune it to performance. (Because factories know. alot about making a rim that can pass tests in a lab, but may not know much about ride feel, etc.)

Again, just my $0.02, I'm no "expert", just been round the block a few times.

[Nickldn]

^ Thank you Joe for confirming my assumptions about CRW rims.

I would add that simply comparing stats like IW and spoke count misses the point of the CRW wheels. They are a strong package because their components are made to work together, unlike the products of many other manufacturers offering menu options. This may be hard to swallow for some who like to make decisions based on spreadsheets and data, but I and others who have ridden these wheels can all say they are indeed very very good.

[Requiem84]

^ Thank you Joe for confirming my assumptions about CRW rims.

I would add that simply comparing stats like IW and spoke count misses the point of the CRW wheels. They are a strong package because their components are made to work together, unlike the products of many other manufacturers offering menu options. This may be hard to swallow for some who like to make decisions based on spreadsheets and data, but I and others who have ridden these wheels can all say they are indeed very very good.

Aparty from the bespoke hubs then I suppose? Or well, it seems some people had issue with those even though they are bespoke?

bespoke in itself is not a guarantee for quality imo.

[Nickldn]

^ absolutely true, the cycling industry moves fast and provides few assurances. However, I have not seen many issues lately on here with CRW hubs, bearings yes but not hubs.

More broadly many of the Chinese wheel manufacturers have had hub issues over the years.

If you're risk averse but DT Swiss hubs!

[apr46]

^ Thank you Joe for confirming my assumptions about CRW rims.

I would add that simply comparing stats like IW and spoke count misses the point of the CRW wheels. They are a strong package because their components are made to work together, unlike the products of many other manufacturers offering menu options. This may be hard to swallow for some who like to make decisions based on spreadsheets and data, but I and others who have ridden these wheels can all say they are indeed very very good.

Not to be a jerk about this point, but it's getting to the point of arguing the virtue of something for the sake of virtue, and it's built on a bedrock of lazy interpretation. Joe confirmed CRW does their layup (fantastic!), and that that effort is above the average for a rim design (also awesome!). That doesn't mean that options from Farsports (for example) are doing less, particularly with their D2C models. Furthermore, the assumption that components designed as a system will have meaningful differences in terms of optimization is just theoretical.

All that said, I finally tracked down a set of CRWs IRL and they are impressive! Sorry, Joe, for the abandoned cart during checkout. I am sure you will get me one of these days

[spdntrxi]

bullocks!

[Nickldn]

LOL companies have been selecting and testing components to create products that perform at their optimum and so are valued at more than the sum of their parts.

Car manufacturers do it, even aircraft manufacturers do it. Bicycle manufacturers do it too you know.

In fact look at the world around you, it's how most manufactured goods are created. If you're still gonna insist that you don't believe this isn't a thing then good luck to you......

[spdntrxi]

so everything is "bespoke" then

I'm just saying CRW's are about as bespoke as a pair of Zipps to be honest.

[apr46]

LOL companies have been selecting and testing components to create products that perform at their optimum and so are valued at more than the sum of their parts.

Car manufacturers do it, even aircraft manufacturers do it. Bicycle manufacturers do it too you know.

In fact look at the world around you, it's how most manufactured goods are created. If you're still gonna insist that you don't believe this isn't a thing then good luck to you......

C'mon, you can't seriously be looking at things in an all-or-nothing manner. Of course, everyone tries to add value. The question is, what are they doing (answered by Joe), how much are they doing relative to others in your competitive set, and how much does that matter?

This gets to the point where you have to ask, is a rim designed for a carbon spoke different from one intended for a steel spoke, and how much impact does that have on system performance? You can't claim, even in theory, that it's making a meaningful difference if you can't answer that question. You also need to know how the design differs from the competition to claim a relative advantage from a design perspective, and then you need to measure how much that matters to make it a non-theoretical comparison.

A good product that can't prove it is better than its competitive set is fine, especially when the inverse is also true.

[Nickldn]

Dude you're not seriously suggesting I go out and buy good knows what testing equipment to qualitatively measure how much value CRW add to their carbon wheels by making them as a system, just to keep you happy? Have you ridden these wheels and are expresing an informed opinion, or is this just trolling (sealioning)?

There are plenty of forum members who have ridden CRWs and regard them highly. Read also this post from Toxin, who says they are the best wheels atm:

viewtopic.php?f=132&t=176957&start=15

[apr46]

I have now ridden these (5060) wheels, but not did not measure their performance or anything like that. I don't think its "sealioning" to question a blanket claim as I am applying the same criteria to competitor products as well. I am not singling out CRW wheels as a product, I am questioning the claim that its a better product than the compeitition on the basis of "being designed as a system"

Experience and correlation is not causation that supports WHY you think this is a better product than unnamed others. I am not asking you to go buy anything. I am suggeesting that your claimed benefits of "bespoke" design are unfounded and likely not unique to this product among wheels that others would compare them to.

[Nickldn]

Correct, I am stating my opinion based on ownership experience, as well as experience of buying poorly functioning, mismatched products in the past. Other forum users also have expressed positive views.

A feature of carbon spokes is the delicate interface with the wheels and hubs, so it makes sense to get this right, rather than for example using an ordinary hub/rim with an adaptor. I would call that 'a system'.

What you have done is immediately question my opinion and demand quantitive proof that CRW wheels are better. Sealioning at its best.

[apr46]

Correct, I am stating my opinion based on ownership experience, as well as experience of buying poorly functioning, mismatched products in the past. Other forum users also have expressed positive views.

A feature of carbon spokes is the delicate interface with the wheels and hubs, so it makes sense to get this right, rather than for example using an ordinary hub/rim with an adaptor. I would call that 'a system'.

What you have done is immediately question my opinion and demand quantitive proof that CRW wheels are better. Sealioning at its best.

Lol no. You turned this into a personal thing in your head. All I did was point out that the REASON WHY you consider these to be a SUPERIOR product was baseless.

I was 100% impressed with the CRWs, and I don't question the design decisions around the hub-and-spoke interface. In addition, I am not at all questioning your positive experience, nor am I asking you for anything—other than to question whether or not your reasoning is logical because of the lack of evidence or understanding of the conditions required for you to make the specific claim of the benefits of bespoke design. I think there has been enough of me polluting this thread since--well, we agree that these are really good wheels.