2023: Going back to Clinchers-> Best Tire?

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

Moderator: robbosmans

Forum rules
The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
timmerrr
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:09 pm

by timmerrr

robertbb wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:10 am
timmerrr wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 6:26 pm


The shop that sponsors my team pushes pirelli tires. On the team we had 4 flats in race situations last year, all 4 on pirelli tires, and less than half the team was riding them. I also witnessed a front flat of a Pzero race on a decent on a group ride that caused a crash. Coupled with the horrific wet grip, the Pzero race (and race SL) is a tire I would steer well clear of.
Just checking - are you referring to Pzero Race or Pzero Road?

Road is the older version and there are well publicised issues with grip (especially wet). As I said above the updated Pzero Race is Pirelli's response to that and I feel they overcompensated so much with this new tyre that the RR data is showing it as a slower tyre than its competitors. I've found grip on these new Race models, in all conditions, to be excellent wet or dry. They're wearing really well and no punctures.
Yes, the most recent version. Same ones that Pogacar roasted at tour of Slovenia. Their training tires like the cinturo might be ok for that use but the Pzero race does not inspire any confidence in me.
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jlok
Posts: 2395
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

I think PZero Race has just updated to "2022" edition, which should be produced in the new Italia factory like the 4S?
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

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C36
Posts: 2468
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Gp5000 rolls well but rides harsh ands grips “ok”.

Michelin cup once you understand the true size on the different rims would be my best option: rolls better on real roads, rides a lot better and grips better too than Gp5k.

Turbo cottons do not rolls has well as GP or CUP on good roads but hold quite better their rolling characteristics than the continental on poorer roads and ride-feel is really good. I haven’t really tested grips limits…

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12444
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I've been harsh on the narrow tread cap of the Power Cup, but apparently it's less severe on the clincher. Additionally My very first ride on TLR Power Cups was a race in which I broke away solo on a descent and held it for third place. It was definitely confidence inspiring in corners, but I'm not sure if that was more to do with the fact that mine 25mm tires measured 29.4mm or because of the compound or both. There is a break point though when you wear through the thin rubber layer on the casing. I felt my rear start to slip eventually. If Michelin would only widen the tread cap by a couple millimeters on each side...

Jaisen
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

froze wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:46 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:44 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:33 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:13 pm
Same goes for latex tubes. Way less reliable than a medium weight butyl.
I find it opposite.
Latex tube is so stretchy that it can survive some pinching that any butyl wouldn't.
Butyl also flat faster when anything poke through the tire.
For latex, it's more of the slow leak until it eventually flat, again, because it's so stretchy so it can bend around sharp object quite a lot before getting cut.
I don't doubt your own experiences, that said my experience is otherwise.

I'd say the fact we're both on these forums (and others) suggests we both know how to handle the tubes and do the installations properly.

Could be batch issues, manufacturer differences, wheel/rim/tape differences.... difficult to say.
I've ridden on and off latex tubes for years, I would try them for about 3 or 4 years, then quit for about 10 years, go back and repeat the cycle. My experience with latex is that I got more flats not less as advertised by latex makers, every time I went back to using them. Believe me, I wanted those tubes to work, which is why I kept going back, the ride is better than butyl, why would I not want them? Flats, that's why!

I would like to try those new poly tubes but the cost of two is more than I spend for one tire, I can't justify spending that kind of money for a tube. The cheapest TPU tube I could find was some brand called RideNow, probably made in China, and I could not find patches, at least with Tubolito they sell patches. Supposedly from what I read that you have to use patches that come from the brand of tube you have or some other TPU patch won't work, also glueless patches won't last.
I have always had the exact same issue as you have with latex. I love how they feel, but I just keep getting flats/failures, and always at the same spot, the valve. Yet when I install butyl, I never get any flats whatsoever. I've tried every brand I could and it is always the same issue. I don't know if it is a quality control issue or something I am doing wrong, but it is curious that the exact same process of mounting butyl is problem free as compared to latex.

Indyx
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:31 am

by Indyx

froze wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:46 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:44 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:33 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:13 pm
Same goes for latex tubes. Way less reliable than a medium weight butyl.
I find it opposite.
Latex tube is so stretchy that it can survive some pinching that any butyl wouldn't.
Butyl also flat faster when anything poke through the tire.
For latex, it's more of the slow leak until it eventually flat, again, because it's so stretchy so it can bend around sharp object quite a lot before getting cut.
I don't doubt your own experiences, that said my experience is otherwise.

I'd say the fact we're both on these forums (and others) suggests we both know how to handle the tubes and do the installations properly.

Could be batch issues, manufacturer differences, wheel/rim/tape differences.... difficult to say.
I've ridden on and off latex tubes for years, I would try them for about 3 or 4 years, then quit for about 10 years, go back and repeat the cycle. My experience with latex is that I got more flats not less as advertised by latex makers, every time I went back to using them. Believe me, I wanted those tubes to work, which is why I kept going back, the ride is better than butyl, why would I not want them? Flats, that's why!

I would like to try those new poly tubes but the cost of two is more than I spend for one tire, I can't justify spending that kind of money for a tube. The cheapest TPU tube I could find was some brand called RideNow, probably made in China, and I could not find patches, at least with Tubolito they sell patches. Supposedly from what I read that you have to use patches that come from the brand of tube you have or some other TPU patch won't work, also glueless patches won't last.
I just bought Ridenow from China, 10 pack, for like $10 dollars per tube. They even came with patches!

froze
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:47 am

by froze

Indyx wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:19 am
froze wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:46 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:44 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:33 pm

I find it opposite.
Latex tube is so stretchy that it can survive some pinching that any butyl wouldn't.
Butyl also flat faster when anything poke through the tire.
For latex, it's more of the slow leak until it eventually flat, again, because it's so stretchy so it can bend around sharp object quite a lot before getting cut.
I don't doubt your own experiences, that said my experience is otherwise.

I'd say the fact we're both on these forums (and others) suggests we both know how to handle the tubes and do the installations properly.

Could be batch issues, manufacturer differences, wheel/rim/tape differences.... difficult to say.
I've ridden on and off latex tubes for years, I would try them for about 3 or 4 years, then quit for about 10 years, go back and repeat the cycle. My experience with latex is that I got more flats not less as advertised by latex makers, every time I went back to using them. Believe me, I wanted those tubes to work, which is why I kept going back, the ride is better than butyl, why would I not want them? Flats, that's why!

I would like to try those new poly tubes but the cost of two is more than I spend for one tire, I can't justify spending that kind of money for a tube. The cheapest TPU tube I could find was some brand called RideNow, probably made in China, and I could not find patches, at least with Tubolito they sell patches. Supposedly from what I read that you have to use patches that come from the brand of tube you have or some other TPU patch won't work, also glueless patches won't last.
I just bought Ridenow from China, 10 pack, for like $10 dollars per tube. They even came with patches!
Let us know how they work out after you've had them for a year. I know this sounds nuts to you all, but I try my darndest not to buy stuff made in China, so I won't be buying those, but someone else might want them.

froze
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:47 am

by froze

Jaisen wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:06 am
froze wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:46 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:44 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:33 pm

I find it opposite.
Latex tube is so stretchy that it can survive some pinching that any butyl wouldn't.
Butyl also flat faster when anything poke through the tire.
For latex, it's more of the slow leak until it eventually flat, again, because it's so stretchy so it can bend around sharp object quite a lot before getting cut.
I don't doubt your own experiences, that said my experience is otherwise.

I'd say the fact we're both on these forums (and others) suggests we both know how to handle the tubes and do the installations properly.

Could be batch issues, manufacturer differences, wheel/rim/tape differences.... difficult to say.
I've ridden on and off latex tubes for years, I would try them for about 3 or 4 years, then quit for about 10 years, go back and repeat the cycle. My experience with latex is that I got more flats not less as advertised by latex makers, every time I went back to using them. Believe me, I wanted those tubes to work, which is why I kept going back, the ride is better than butyl, why would I not want them? Flats, that's why!

I would like to try those new poly tubes but the cost of two is more than I spend for one tire, I can't justify spending that kind of money for a tube. The cheapest TPU tube I could find was some brand called RideNow, probably made in China, and I could not find patches, at least with Tubolito they sell patches. Supposedly from what I read that you have to use patches that come from the brand of tube you have or some other TPU patch won't work, also glueless patches won't last.
I have always had the exact same issue as you have with latex. I love how they feel, but I just keep getting flats/failures, and always at the same spot, the valve. Yet when I install butyl, I never get any flats whatsoever. I've tried every brand I could and it is always the same issue. I don't know if it is a quality control issue or something I am doing wrong, but it is curious that the exact same process of mounting butyl is problem free as compared to latex.
I don't recall problems with the valves, but almost all butyl tubes are being made these days without a thick grommet to support the stem, so even butyl stems are having issues these days, which is why a lot of mini pump manufacturers came out with hose connection instead of a direct connection, because most people when the pressure gets more difficult to push the pump they start "sawing" the stem back and forth, which causes the stem to fail, with a hose the hose absorbs most of that sawing affect. So it may be possible that latex tubes have gone the same route?

Indyx
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:31 am

by Indyx

froze wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:16 am
Indyx wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:19 am
froze wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:46 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:44 pm


I don't doubt your own experiences, that said my experience is otherwise.

I'd say the fact we're both on these forums (and others) suggests we both know how to handle the tubes and do the installations properly.

Could be batch issues, manufacturer differences, wheel/rim/tape differences.... difficult to say.
I've ridden on and off latex tubes for years, I would try them for about 3 or 4 years, then quit for about 10 years, go back and repeat the cycle. My experience with latex is that I got more flats not less as advertised by latex makers, every time I went back to using them. Believe me, I wanted those tubes to work, which is why I kept going back, the ride is better than butyl, why would I not want them? Flats, that's why!

I would like to try those new poly tubes but the cost of two is more than I spend for one tire, I can't justify spending that kind of money for a tube. The cheapest TPU tube I could find was some brand called RideNow, probably made in China, and I could not find patches, at least with Tubolito they sell patches. Supposedly from what I read that you have to use patches that come from the brand of tube you have or some other TPU patch won't work, also glueless patches won't last.
I just bought Ridenow from China, 10 pack, for like $10 dollars per tube. They even came with patches!
Let us know how they work out after you've had them for a year. I know this sounds nuts to you all, but I try my darndest not to buy stuff made in China, so I won't be buying those, but someone else might want them.
Agree- I try not to buy Chinese things. I no longer buy wheels from there. These tubes get good reviews, and are disposable so given the price different with others I am ok to try them.

Jaisen
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

froze wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:28 am
Jaisen wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:06 am
froze wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:46 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:44 pm


I don't doubt your own experiences, that said my experience is otherwise.

I'd say the fact we're both on these forums (and others) suggests we both know how to handle the tubes and do the installations properly.

Could be batch issues, manufacturer differences, wheel/rim/tape differences.... difficult to say.
I've ridden on and off latex tubes for years, I would try them for about 3 or 4 years, then quit for about 10 years, go back and repeat the cycle. My experience with latex is that I got more flats not less as advertised by latex makers, every time I went back to using them. Believe me, I wanted those tubes to work, which is why I kept going back, the ride is better than butyl, why would I not want them? Flats, that's why!

I would like to try those new poly tubes but the cost of two is more than I spend for one tire, I can't justify spending that kind of money for a tube. The cheapest TPU tube I could find was some brand called RideNow, probably made in China, and I could not find patches, at least with Tubolito they sell patches. Supposedly from what I read that you have to use patches that come from the brand of tube you have or some other TPU patch won't work, also glueless patches won't last.
I have always had the exact same issue as you have with latex. I love how they feel, but I just keep getting flats/failures, and always at the same spot, the valve. Yet when I install butyl, I never get any flats whatsoever. I've tried every brand I could and it is always the same issue. I don't know if it is a quality control issue or something I am doing wrong, but it is curious that the exact same process of mounting butyl is problem free as compared to latex.
I don't recall problems with the valves, but almost all butyl tubes are being made these days without a thick grommet to support the stem, so even butyl stems are having issues these days, which is why a lot of mini pump manufacturers came out with hose connection instead of a direct connection, because most people when the pressure gets more difficult to push the pump they start "sawing" the stem back and forth, which causes the stem to fail, with a hose the hose absorbs most of that sawing affect. So it may be possible that latex tubes have gone the same route?
That's an interesting explanation. I've been running tubeless lately so can't comment on current construction on either latex or butyl tubes, but maybe I should test latex again on my old bike paying close attention not to saw the valve stem when inflating. Could be I was doing that all along unawares.

scottshire
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:35 pm

by scottshire

My absolute favorite is Rene Herse Bon Jon Pass extralight, but 35 will struggle to fit under all but the most modern road frames.

The GP5k are... fine. They don't feel particularly fast or forgiving, but they roll out well and I'm actually faster on them according to the stopwatch.

I was very impressed with the Wolfpack Race; Arenz knows his tires.

The Pirelli left me cold. Pawned them off on a SWORKS rider.

The Turbo Cottons are, as stated above, fantastic, especially in the HotN version

Xabi
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:55 pm

by Xabi

froze wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:05 pm
Cotton tires are fantastic riding, very sticky which makes them handle like they're on rails, combined with latex tubes and they'll rival cotton tubulars easily. The downside to cotton tires is that they wear out very quickly, you might get 800 miles tops, but they are made for racing so the longevity of the tires is not important in that regard, and of course, the other issue is that cotton tires flat easily as well, something you need to be prepared to handle. For everyday street riding, I think they're too impractical.

If only they made a silk clincher!


Corsa g2.0 tlr and non tlr last pretty long, around 10k. I went through 2 sets and tire wear is uniform, they don't get square shape like nylon ones. I'm ~90kg and they have gone off road sometimes. The only issue is that one of my front tires got rotten because of the sealant always staying on the same place when hang up for storage.

froze
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:47 am

by froze

Xabi wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:09 pm
froze wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:05 pm
Cotton tires are fantastic riding, very sticky which makes them handle like they're on rails, combined with latex tubes and they'll rival cotton tubulars easily. The downside to cotton tires is that they wear out very quickly, you might get 800 miles tops, but they are made for racing so the longevity of the tires is not important in that regard, and of course, the other issue is that cotton tires flat easily as well, something you need to be prepared to handle. For everyday street riding, I think they're too impractical.

If only they made a silk clincher!


Corsa g2.0 tlr and non tlr last pretty long, around 10k. I went through 2 sets and tire wear is uniform, they don't get square shape like nylon ones. I'm ~90kg and they have gone off road sometimes. The only issue is that one of my front tires got rotten because of the sealant always staying on the same place when hang up for storage.
I thought after reading what you said that they maybe making cotton tires better than the ones I used back in the 70's, those didn't last long, but now with silica, gripton, and graphite they put in rubber, they might last longer, while reviews on the Specialize site have riders claiming 4,000 to 6,000 miles, except when Cycling Weekly tested them they're saying wear can be relatively quick, whatever that means but I doubt they would consider 4,000 miles as relatively quick, so it has to be somewhere around half that much.

Road Ride Review only got 1,500 miles out of their set; https://www.roadriderreview.com/single- ... estruction

And a guy with the handle of Beeatnik post 9 only got 500 miles: https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2535402

Plus another user named RevChuck in post 3 says he was lucky to get 1,000 miles on the rear: https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling ... tires.html

So now I'm rethinking this, that the technology isn't really helping a whole lot on these cotton tires. Sorry but I have to go with what my experiences were, and what the latest experiences are showing. While they did improve the mileage, but only maybe a couple hundred miles more than my experience was.

On top of that the weight of those tires is 240 grams, not exactly super lightweight tires, but not remotely heavy either.

I just can't understand how most people are getting 500 to 1,000 miles on a rear tire, and then you say they were getting 6,000 miles for you. I am assuming when you said 10k that meant 10,000 something since you were writing using European terms then that had to be kilometers, thus 10,000 kilometers would be 6,000 miles, correct me please if that is wrong.

Xabi
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:55 pm

by Xabi

500-1.000 miles out of a tire is ridiculous, you d probably get more than that from Corsa speed or TT veloflex tires.

My Corsa s lasted around the same than gp4k and pirelli pzero without the square shaped wear.

by Weenie


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thumper88
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:27 pm

by thumper88

I'm all in for tubeless on the gravel bike, a few dozen races and nothing but good results from them... but yeah, on road I just don't see it.
I stick with Gp5000 and latex. It's boring but effective. I've done about 40,000 miles on that combination and have I'd say on average a flat every 5,000 miles. Some years are worse, but that's about typical.
I run the Vittoria latex and haven't noticed anything esp vulnerable about them. Back in GP4000 days I was on shallower wheels and didn't need extnesions so I could run the green michelin ones and there was a brief run of them with issues around the valves but mostly they performed well.
I'm not sure the advantages of tubeless over a latex setup. On BTRR he tests with butyl tubes so people tend to get an outsized belief about the gap in speed between tubeless and the faster clinchers. Once you subtract the fastst two or so tubeless tires, which are too flimsy to consider for much more than race day, there is essentially no real difference in speed, and a lot less hassle with setup.

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