Ascent Polaris wheels

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AscentBikes
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romanmoser wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:45 am
mrlobber wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:26 am
Took the plunge and ordered the rims only with the raw finish. Should come out as the ultimate wheelset for not-so-good roads.
I don't see the rim option only on the website
Maybe I didn't looked that well
Or did you just asked by PM or mail ?

Keen to hear how it went process, orders, price shipping etc
You building them with something other than dt swiss straightpull hubs if rims only I guess ?
Hello Romanmoser

Yeah, drop us a message at contact@ascent-bikes.com
We've sent a set of rims to Latvia, and to Finland so far!
Of course, if you have a specific hub build in mind, happy to talk there too.

Regards
QX

mrlobber
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by mrlobber

I ordered disc version, but they have rim version available too, with reinforced brake track. Rim shape otherwise is the same. Yes, it's easier to ask, they respond almost instantly. Shipping was really quick, a couple of days from Singapore to local customs.

I ordered rims only to save on the VAT/import duties (even if built on DT350, I would save around 100 EUR), and didn't have full decision on hubs anyway.
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I would say though, that you really do have to be careful about the rim brake rims, given how wide they are.
If you're using the standard calipers, you will need to:

1) Open them as wide as possible
2) Use thinner brake pads (like Swissstop Black Prince EVO)
3) Remove the spherical washer from the brake shoe and place it outside - not strictly necessary, but it helps give 2mm additional clearance.

If you're using direct mount caliper brakes - I would say that it is unlikely to work. We tested on a S-Works SL6 and it was not possible.

Cheers
QX

romanmoser
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by romanmoser

I don't use rim brakes with so wide rims , make no sense to me ;)
Sending you a mail

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romanmoser wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:26 pm
I don't use rim brakes with so wide rims , make no sense to me ;)
Sending you a mail
I'll be on the lookout for the email!
Yeah, I was saying that just in case you were thinking of rim brakes!

QX

BigBoyND
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by BigBoyND

Wow, for a wheel of that depth and width, the weight is seriously impressive. I went for the i9.65 because of the weight/size. This wheel weighs the same but is 4mm deeper and 2mm wider. Impressive.

Given the option of lighter layup, use of T700/T800, the rim brake pattern, and the raw finish on the light model, is it safe to assume the rim is made by Lightbicycle?

I'm at the hospital after a crash. Haven't seen my bike, but if the wheels are broken, I might get these wheels next

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BigBoyND wrote:
Sat Oct 08, 2022 8:30 am
Wow, for a wheel of that depth and width, the weight is seriously impressive. I went for the i9.65 because of the weight/size. This wheel weighs the same but is 4mm deeper and 2mm wider. Impressive.

Given the option of lighter layup, use of T700/T800, the rim brake pattern, and the raw finish on the light model, is it safe to assume the rim is made by Lightbicycle?

I'm at the hospital after a crash. Haven't seen my bike, but if the wheels are broken, I might get these wheels next
Hey BigBoyND,
Please rest up - I hope you get better soon.

Thank you for your compliments - please note that the weight is with DT180 hubs and the raw rims. The DT240 version is about 1600-odd grams.
The rims are not made by LightBicycle, but rather by another of our wheel partners whom we've been working with for years. It's not just T700/T800, a substantial portion is higher strength/modulus than the two common grades. Of course, our layup schedule is proprietary, but we combine the use of the higher grade fibers along with optimization to reduce the rim weight.

If you do get our wheels, we provide a lifetime parts crash replacement policy for the wheels - in the event of a crash or accident where the wheels are rendered unrideable, we'll provide whatever parts need replacing at no cost, you just need to pay for shipping and labor on your side to re-lace the wheels.

I hope to hear from you - do drop us an email at contact@ascent-bikes.com once you're feeling better!

Regards
QX

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by BigBoyND

Will do, thanks!

Does the light layup have a weight limit? Is it appropriate for 85kg rider?

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BigBoyND wrote:
Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:51 am
Will do, thanks!

Does the light layup have a weight limit? Is it appropriate for 85kg rider?
Nope, we have a rider who is 120kg riding the raw finish rims.
I have to clarify: The layup is the same for all rims - we do not hold back with regards to the quality and strength of the rims.
However, there is a natural variation in the weight of the rims, and some rims have a better cosmetic finish than others.

The lightest and best looking rims end up having the raw finish - the weight savings come from being lightest, and coming without the paint finish.
There is no functional difference in strength between the raw and standard rims. If you would like something that looks very eye-catching, and would like to squeeze every bit of weight from the wheels, then the Raw finish rims would be a great choice.

Cheers
QX

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by TobinHatesYou

I don’t know whether to file this as a minor issue or “no shit, dummy,” but at high speeds my Polaris front wheel will wobble/oscillate if “provoked.”

As in anything that might cause an abrupt steering force like a push from my hand or an uneven patch in the road will result in a fast wobble. I won't call it speed wobbles because it doesn't endure for more than 1-2 seconds and doesn't seem to be caused by a lack of stiffness. With my ENVEs, if the wheels get pushed in on direction, they keep steering in that direction. It feels like these wheels are so deep, there’s a rudder effect trying to push them back into a neutral position against the wind. When this happens, there is an over-correction and it points past neutral, then back-and-forth. This seems to happen when I have neither a firm grip on the bars, nor a loose grip. If I grip my bars more firmly or more loosely the oscillation dissipates (or is less likely to occur in the first place.)

I also don’t know if this is specific to my position on the bike, my Madone, 28mm GP5K, etc. I just know that it’s real and it made a fast descent a little more exciting than usual on Saturday. There was another rider on Polarises in my group and he didn’t seem to know what I was talking about, but he also hasn’t ridden too many deep-section wheels before.

On the other hand, I also descended faster than pretty much anyone else on Strava that day. I came within 3 second of my Kings Mtn descent PR and I wasn’t trying to.

Ultimately extremely deep wheels want to keep going straight against a pure headwind even when something else is trying to steer it in another direction. There might be a pendulum / Newton’s Cradle kind of effect when this happens. Maybe this is why pros tend to stick to the 50-60mm range.

Don’t worry QX, I still like your wheels very much, though if you recall I did ask if a 50-60mm version was in the works when we first talked. :D

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BigBoyND
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by BigBoyND

I've used ~75mm Enve, 80mm SwissSide, and even 95mm Knight front wheels and never experienced anything like that. If anything, deeper wheels should be more rigid. Could it be your fork?

mrlobber
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by mrlobber

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:29 am
I don’t know whether to file this as a minor issue or “no shit, dummy,” but at high speeds my Polaris front wheel will wobble/oscillate if “provoked.”

As in anything that might cause an abrupt steering force like a push from my hand or an uneven patch in the road will result in a fast wobble. I won't call it speed wobbles because it doesn't endure for more than 1-2 seconds and doesn't seem to be caused by a lack of stiffness. With my ENVEs, if the wheels get pushed in on direction, they keep steering in that direction. It feels like these wheels are so deep, there’s a rudder effect trying to push them back into a neutral position against the wind. When this happens, there is an over-correction and it points past neutral, then back-and-forth. This seems to happen when I have neither a firm grip on the bars, nor a loose grip. If I grip my bars more firmly or more loosely the oscillation dissipates (or is less likely to occur in the first place.)
Perhaps I feel something similar if I've accelerated to 60+ kph behind a truck (dangerous, I know), and sweep to the side to go into straight wind full myself. At that moment, until speed drops to +/- below 50, I can feel random "micro accelerations" on the front trying to push the bike back and forth. They're inconsistent and short, but can be felt clearly. This is 60x26mm BTLOS wheels on a Cervelo S5 with 25mm GP5k STRs mounted. Then again, the real cause might in fact be aftereffects of the "lower pressure air pocket" left by the departing truck, indirectly simulating some high speed wind gusts (given my own speed at that time as a rider+bike), I don't know.
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by TobinHatesYou

BigBoyND wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:35 am
I've used ~75mm Enve, 80mm SwissSide, and even 95mm Knight front wheels and never experienced anything like that. If anything, deeper wheels should be more rigid. Could it be your fork?

It doesn't happen with ENVE SES 5.6s on the same fork. It's not a stiffness issue, I assure you that. I am almost sure it is an aero issue. The effectively straight wind direction hits the surface of the wheel like a flap/rudder and kicks it back to the orientation of least resistance, but then it overrotates in the other direction due to momentum causing a short oscillation period.

This only happens at extremely high speeds with an external steering input like a bump in the road or my own hands.

It happened here while running over some "wavy" asphalt and taking a corner at nearly 50mph/80kph.
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Hello Tobin,

Thank you for your feedback. I'm sorry that you encountered this wobble while riding. This is the first time I've heard of this happening. 50mph/80kph is actually pretty darn fast!
I've had riders do high speed descents so far without issues - they have mentioned that the Polaris wants to track straight, especially after a gust, but never with an oscillation. Are the oscillations self-damping (trending toward zero) or self-reinforcing (increasing in magnitude)? How long do they last, and are they slow (~1Hz) or medium (~10hz) or fast (>100hz)? It's curious that the oscillations only appear if you grip hard or not at all.

Couple of hypotheses:
1) There is an unexpected interaction with your fork. Best way to test would be repeating the descent with another bike. I recall you were with another rider on the Polaris as well, and he experienced no such issue.
2) Residual imbalance in wheel/tire/tube system is exciting the front wheel. Try performing a dynamic balance on the complete front wheel and repeating the descent.
3) Could the IsoSpeed damper be decreasing the frame stiffness sufficiently to lower the resonant frequency? If at all possible, try increasing the stiffness of the IsoSpeed damper and try again.
4) Check if headset is properly preloaded.

Yours is the first Madone with Polaris, so I remain committed to working on this with you.

As for 50-60mms.. let me launch my 42 first yeah :) CFD, custom molds, and testing are expensive.

Regards
QX

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by TobinHatesYou

AscentBikes wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:37 am
Hello Tobin,

Thank you for your feedback. I'm sorry that you encountered this wobble while riding. This is the first time I've heard of this happening. 50mph/80kph is actually pretty darn fast!
I've had riders do high speed descents so far without issues - they have mentioned that the Polaris wants to track straight, especially after a gust, but never with an oscillation. Are the oscillations self-damping (trending toward zero) or self-reinforcing (increasing in magnitude)? How long do they last, and are they slow (~1Hz) or medium (~10hz) or fast (>100hz)? It's curious that the oscillations only appear if you grip hard or not at all.

Couple of hypotheses:
1) There is an unexpected interaction with your fork. Best way to test would be repeating the descent with another bike. I recall you were with another rider on the Polaris as well, and he experienced no such issue.
2) Residual imbalance in wheel/tire/tube system is exciting the front wheel. Try performing a dynamic balance on the complete front wheel and repeating the descent.
3) Could the IsoSpeed damper be decreasing the frame stiffness sufficiently to lower the resonant frequency? If at all possible, try increasing the stiffness of the IsoSpeed damper and try again.
4) Check if headset is properly preloaded.

Yours is the first Madone with Polaris, so I remain committed to working on this with you.

As for 50-60mms.. let me launch my 42 first yeah :) CFD, custom molds, and testing are expensive.

Regards
QX

The oscillation is self-damping and a low frequency, but faster than 1Hz. It happens with a medium grip and is less common when I have either a firm or loose grip.

My bike well maintained and doesn’t have a front IsoSpeed damper. I will probably mount my 7.8s and ride those on the same roads at some point to see if they exhibit the same wobbles.

I took that corner around 5mph faster than Peter did.

I haven’t ruled out imbalance in the wheels, but I feel like that would create different sensations…vertical bounce vs side-to-side wiggle.

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