A stiffer wheel wanted. Spoke type, number, or rim depth?

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Remember "soggy" was just relative to my Shamal Ultras. The wheels are more than fine, they are quite excellent. Just looking for the next level up in terms of stiffness/responsiveness. In terms of lateral stiffness, I don't get brake rub, but just pulling on the wheel it moves side-to-side about double the distance of the Shamals at the same effort. It doesn't feel too flexy when riding, just more than I find optimal.

As NovemberDave points out the differential sensation could be from various things. The wheels are wide, 21mm internal, no idea how that impacts my impressions other then my Corsa 28mm are super comfy at 70 - 75 psi. As for audio difference, I mostly hear the wind :D. The wheels are pretty darn quiet. There is less of the "woosh woosh" than I remember from my last pair of Zipps.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

alcatraz
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by alcatraz

That's a good test to simply pull/push on the wheels. If they move a lot, chances are they do so during riding too. Let us know your findings after sampling a bunch of wheels Mr.Gib. :)

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NovemberDave
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by NovemberDave

alcatraz wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:47 am
That's a good test to simply pull/push on the wheels. If they move a lot, chances are they do so during riding too. Let us know your findings after sampling a bunch of wheels Mr.Gib. :)
That will also test the bearings, and the hub pre-load tolerances, and the bearing fit in the hub (to a lesser degree). A test I've always relied on is putting the wheel in a stand and squeezing the s**t out of a pair of spokes. If you build wheels, doing this until you can no longer get the wheel to go out of true means the build is finished, but the movement of the wheel during the squeeze will give a great idea of how stiff it is, and how well the build will hold up over time.

We also have a jig where we can lay the wheel horizontally and weight the axle and measure deflection there, but that's a long way for a consumer to go.

The inner width part of the equation is simply that a wider inner width rim equals a wider tire. Even if you equalize the tire inflations according to LaPlace's law to give equal surface tensions, they won't feel exactly the same because they're not exactly the same.

alcatraz
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by alcatraz

Very cool Novemberdave. I'd love to hear about your observations when comparing:

28 vs 24 spokes, (maybe 5 gram 24h vs 4 gram 28h, or 6/24 vs 5/28)
6gr vs 5gr vs 4gr spokes
disc brake front wheels vs rim brake front wheels
campy g3 wheels vs non-campy triplet (like perhaps roval)

I have a suspicion which one is better than the other, but I have no way of quantifying it. It would be nice to just hear someone give a loose perceived estimate. "oh this deflects ~10% less"

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Yes, that's what caught my attention. More spokes might be better then stiffer spokes etc. But then, what are the aero losses of a higher spoke count? Does it matter on a rear wheel? And does the recipe change everytime you alter rim depth or is the relationship more linear. Cool stuff. Ultimately however, I'm just a guy who likes nice gear, and as long as my stuff doesn't fail me on the road, it really is splitting hairs. I will never loose a race because of any of this - I can guarantee it. :wink:
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

NovemberDave
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by NovemberDave

alcatraz wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:20 am
Very cool Novemberdave. I'd love to hear about your observations when comparing:

28 vs 24 spokes, (maybe 5 gram 24h vs 4 gram 28h, or 6/24 vs 5/28)
6gr vs 5gr vs 4gr spokes
disc brake front wheels vs rim brake front wheels
campy g3 wheels vs non-campy triplet (like perhaps roval)

I have a suspicion which one is better than the other, but I have no way of quantifying it. It would be nice to just hear someone give a loose perceived estimate. "oh this deflects ~10% less"
You can root around blog posts at around the time of this one https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog ... -28-spokes, which is when I recall doing the most testing of this sort. We didn't publish every test we did, and a lot of tests done have evolved into "stored memory" over time. Somewhere in there there is a test on triplet lacing, for which we used a non-triplet-specific hub (the non-drive flange wasn't kicked out real far), and it offered no stiffness benefit to a conventially laced wheel with the same number of spokes. In order for triplet to be worth anything in wheel stiffness, it has to be on an optimized hub.

I can't link to every relevant test from the blog because there are a ton spread out over time, but the rabbit hole is there if you want to jump in.

Mr. Gib - The aero losses of a higher spoke count rear wheel are negligible. Rear wheel aerodynamics counts about 1/2 as much as front, and adding 4 spokes in the front has about a 1w difference, depending on the rim used. So a 24 spoke rear would be ~.5w better aero than a 28 spoke equivalent. Read this post https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog ... -the-front and others from that time when we did a lot of aero testing to get a good feel for those effects.

rides4beer
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by rides4beer

While we're discussing it, I have a set of wheels on order, didn't really think about spoke selection, just went CX-Ray all around. But now I see they offer CX-Sprint on the rear drive side, would that be worth it for me, being 84kg and making decent power? (yes, I've asked them, but always nice to get other opinions as well)

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C36
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by C36

rides4beer wrote:While we're discussing it, I have a set of wheels on order, didn't really think about spoke selection, just went CX-Ray all around. But now I see they offer CX-Sprint on the rear drive side, would that be worth it for me, being 84kg and making decent power? (yes, I've asked them, but always nice to get other opinions as well)
Simple answer yes... I advocate for a decade that cx-ray don’t have their place on rear wheels. The stiffness loss is not worth the ridiculous weight gain.


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minecraftguy69
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by minecraftguy69

hey mr.gib! sorry to revive this thread, but i am wondering how your LB wheels are doing so far. I am look at a similar build ar55 with cx ray 20/24 and carbon-ti hubs. i am currently 76kg with a bigger sprint (1500w). have u have any issues?

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Kurt1980
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by Kurt1980

Adding a partially valuable data point here.

24 CX-rays on Carbon Ti hubs and 35mm Far Sports wheels are pretty soft and could get brake pad rub.

24 CX-sprints (both sides) on Carbon Ti hubs and 50mm BTLOS wheels are notably better, no brake pad rub when riding and obviously stiffer laterally when I push them manually.

Confounding factors are rim depths and different brands.

But in light of the above, I agree now with C36.... CX rays shouldn't be on a rear wheel unless you are super light.

Edit: I'm about 73kgs, Max sprint 1440ish W but that's peak.

minecraftguy69
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by minecraftguy69

Kurt1980 wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:26 am
Adding a partially valuable data point here.

24 CX-rays on Carbon Ti hubs and 35mm Far Sports wheels are pretty soft and could get brake pad rub.

24 CX-sprints (both sides) on Carbon Ti hubs and 50mm BTLOS wheels are notably better, no brake pad rub when riding and obviously stiffer laterally when I push them manually.

Confounding factors are rim depths and different brands.

But in light of the above, I agree now with C36.... CX rays shouldn't be on a rear wheel unless you are super light.
thank you for your info! from what i understand going 24/28 on cx-ray with carbon-ti hubs will be lighter than going 20/24 cx-sprint. would this be a significant difference? or would you still suggest going cx-sprint in the rear

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Kurt1980
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by Kurt1980

minecraftguy69 wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:40 am
Kurt1980 wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:26 am
Adding a partially valuable data point here.

24 CX-rays on Carbon Ti hubs and 35mm Far Sports wheels are pretty soft and could get brake pad rub.

24 CX-sprints (both sides) on Carbon Ti hubs and 50mm BTLOS wheels are notably better, no brake pad rub when riding and obviously stiffer laterally when I push them manually.

Confounding factors are rim depths and different brands.

But in light of the above, I agree now with C36.... CX rays shouldn't be on a rear wheel unless you are super light.
thank you for your info! from what i understand going 24/28 on cx-ray with carbon-ti hubs will be lighter than going 20/24 cx-sprint. would this be a significant difference? or would you still suggest going cx-sprint in the rear
Hey no problem!

I'm not an engineer, but I would guess that more lighter gauge spokes is slightly more efficient (strength to weight ratio) than fewer heavier gauge spokes.

To be honest though, if I could have gone 28h CX-Sprints I would have, but BTLOS only had 24h Carbon Ti hubs.

I think weight difference is negligible, but the feel is improved. I'm comparing to a set of Fulcrum racing 7s, and they did feel nice and snappy. Now.... whether that translates to an actual performance difference is unknown, but it did feel really fast which was nice.

I think that's one thing not always communicated to prospective low spoke count carbon wheel buyers: The relentless pursuit of light weight really does change the feel.

Full disclosure- I ride a Scott Foil mk1 with 25mm tubeless tyres and a full carbon saddle. I prefer a firm ride.

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nickf
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by nickf

My 55 deep rim brake btlos wheels I used cheapo Novatec hubs 20/24, cxray on front, rear is cxray w/ sprint DS. I wouldn't change a thing. Any harsher and they wouldn't be fun to ride. I'm 77kg and get no brake rub. My old bontrager aeolus 5 wheels with aerolite spokes all over were noodles in comparison, constant brake rub.

minecraftguy69
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by minecraftguy69

nickf wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:27 pm
My 55 deep rim brake btlos wheels I used cheapo Novatec hubs 20/24, cxray on front, rear is cxray w/ sprint DS. I wouldn't change a thing. Any harsher and they wouldn't be fun to ride. I'm 77kg and get no brake rub. My old bontrager aeolus 5 wheels with aerolite spokes all over were noodles in comparison, constant brake rub.
thank you for sharing! i believe LB has an option for DS CX-sprint and CX-ray for the rest. ill probably give it a go at that option.

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C36
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by C36

Just a reminder that brake rub is a poor indicator. It’s 180deg away from the contact point and is heavily influenced by the frame.

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