Carbon spokes - why?

[toxin]

There absolutely were problems, alanyu posted about cases of it happening

[Rotalution]

Maybe someone posted this before but quite interesting, all marketing bs? Then we see clx iii with carbon spokes? Lol~

"Roval tested the weight and aerodynamic performance of seven different spoke models, and although carbon fibre spokes would have been lighter, Specialized concluded they'd have been around 1.5 watts less aerodynamic. Given the S-Works Tarmac doesn't need any help hitting the UCI's minimum limit of 6.8kg, the brand was happy to take the weight gain and retain the aero benefit."

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roval- ... -wheelset/

[Jaisen]

Maybe someone posted this before but quite interesting, all marketing bs? Then we see clx iii with carbon spokes? Lol~

"Roval tested the weight and aerodynamic performance of seven different spoke models, and although carbon fibre spokes would have been lighter, Specialized concluded they'd have been around 1.5 watts less aerodynamic. Given the S-Works Tarmac doesn't need any help hitting the UCI's minimum limit of 6.8kg, the brand was happy to take the weight gain and retain the aero benefit."

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roval- ... -wheelset/

Link is broken, but I found it. Interesting read: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roval- ... -wheelset/.

[CuoreTi]

Ask any Campy Bora/Zonda/Eurus and or Fulcrum Speed/Carbon/R3/R1 wheel rider - they use a very similar hub/spoke interface.
So far, no significant problems have been reported.

[toxin]

It's just a potential risk that isn't neccessary. The likelihood of a spoke failing for one reason or another is incredibly low but not 0. If that happens the integrity of this design becomes way more compromised than a pull through/thread in design. In an activity where equipment failure at the wrong time can result in serious injury or even death, I see no reason to go with the less safety redundant design, especially when that design has no benefits in practical use.

[EtoDemerzel]

Maybe someone posted this before but quite interesting, all marketing bs? Then we see clx iii with carbon spokes? Lol~

"Roval tested the weight and aerodynamic performance of seven different spoke models, and although carbon fibre spokes would have been lighter, Specialized concluded they'd have been around 1.5 watts less aerodynamic. Given the S-Works Tarmac doesn't need any help hitting the UCI's minimum limit of 6.8kg, the brand was happy to take the weight gain and retain the aero benefit."

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roval- ... -wheelset/

Link is broken, but I found it. Interesting read: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roval- ... -wheelset/.

Carbon spokes are thicker than flat bladed ss but does that mean it's less aero? Depends on which carbon spokes they tested.
Specialized marketing is very good at specialized marketing.

[JWTS]

Maybe someone posted this before but quite interesting, all marketing bs? Then we see clx iii with carbon spokes? Lol~

"Roval tested the weight and aerodynamic performance of seven different spoke models, and although carbon fibre spokes would have been lighter, Specialized concluded they'd have been around 1.5 watts less aerodynamic. Given the S-Works Tarmac doesn't need any help hitting the UCI's minimum limit of 6.8kg, the brand was happy to take the weight gain and retain the aero benefit."

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roval- ... -wheelset/

Well, look at this way: if you believe Newmen's wind tunnel testing, they were able to essentially equal the performance of CLXII and beat it on weight, at less than half the price. And carbon spokes are the reason why. They can do it without carbon sheets blessed by the Pope and sprinkled with holy water before being laid into a titanium mold blessed by the Dalai Lama etc...

[toxin]

Yeah I'm very curious on what kind of setup spesh tested, but it's a fact that a single carbon spoke is aerodynamically worse than an aerolite II and probably cx-ray for the time being. Newmen did it by drastically reducing spoke count. As wheellab showed, it is possible to improve on carbon spokes still

[apr46]

I think we are solidly into really marginal stuff with these wheelsets. Newman's own aero testing showed that their wheels match the Rapide, but there hasnt been much on them since and there is very little on how they did the comparison. I assume from "wheelsets" in the charts they tested both the front and the rear? If you reverse Wheelabs assumptions and calculations, a 15-spoke carbon setup should be roughly equal to an 18-spoke CXray setup (and 20 to 24 as well), so this might make sense as being similar.

If we go by the weights on R2-bike, the Newman A49/A54 combo is also closer to 1330g. I know the price gap is significant, but 10-20g is probably within the margins for weight difference too.

Hunt's Sub 50 limitless whitepaper, shows that the benchmark is the Rapide followed, likely within the margin of error, the Enve SES 4.5 and then the Sub 50. They also showed an estimated 0.2w saving using internal nipples, which is really different than what Wheellab suggests.

All of this suggests that its not really clear whether or not metal or carbon spokes are currently better from an Aero and weight perspective, and if Specialized wasnt comfortable going below 18 spokes, it would explain why they stuck with metal.

[toxin]

Yeah, I don't take all the wheellab results at face value. They never mention spoke counts and their simulations for nipples seem to be in isolation and clean airflow, which, being so close to the rim, will never be close to realistic.

[Rotalution]

There was a video of Peaktorque on Nero show explaining his take on carbon spokes, very interesting points have a look when have time. I have now given up the idea of carbon spokes and will consider non carbon spokes Farsports or something.

https://youtu.be/WkqSgTu2SR8?t=3122

[toxin]

this comes from the early carbon spoke adopters just slapping carbon spokes on and calling it a day without doing any testing into ride quality. Now we're getting wheels with 20, 18, 16 and 15 carbon spokes and those problems are becoming less prevalent

[Kubackjeee]

There absolutely were problems, alanyu posted about cases of it happening

One problem out of thousands.

But ok, I understand you use those hubs, have a lot of milage and experience and can say that all the engineers who made those designs made a mistake and wheels are unsafe to ride ?

[toxin]

viewtopic.php?p=1858023#p1858118

[apr46]

There absolutely were problems, alanyu posted about cases of it happening

One problem out of thousands.

But ok, I understand you use those hubs, have a lot of milage and experience and can say that all the engineers who made those designs made a mistake and wheels are unsafe to ride ?

I look at this problem the same way I look at hookless: low probability event, potential severe consequences because a good design for the manufacturer was prioritized over safety redundancy for the customer. Not having the chance to look at all the designs out there, I suspect some are better than others at retaining spokes when you have a failure, just like how I feel like Enve hookless > Zipp hookless.

However, the newer hubs appear to be mostly slotted pull-through, thread-in, or side entry with a retaining cap on one side and slotted pull-through on the other. In other words, new designs have addressed this.