Craft Racing wheels - carbon spokes 1180g

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ChinaCycling
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:49 am

by ChinaCycling

mikerthebiker wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 5:03 pm
ChinaCycling wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:59 am
spdntrxi wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:40 am
you can argue wider front for stability will make you aero overall... but at 0 yaw and probably other yaws as well.. if you are steady you will NOT be more aero on a wider wheel like CLX11 or CRs
@ChinaCycling

I wouldn't deal in such certainties when talking about aero. I agree at 0 yaw a narrower wheel alone will (probably) be more aero than a wider one... but, you have to also think about how the wheel is interacting with the downtube, how the rim is keeping the air away from the spokes, etc, etc. So, I wouldn't like to bet money on which one is faster as a whole.

As always, the only way to be sure is to test it.
So, I've had several episodes of the death wobble with this wheelset (I don't think ENVEs were quite as frequent). Any advice on what could cause this? I know this can be weight specific as well, I'm always around 85-90kg. With my equipment, I probably come near the weigh limit. But could this have anything to do with the wheelset hub bearings or anything with the wheelset itself? I might check with my LBS about the headset as well, but I'm just trying to eliminate factors here to have more confidence with downhill speed.

Thank you!
If you had it (but not as frequently) with the ENVEs, it sounds like an underlying issue. The lighter rims mean a lot less gyroscopic effect resisting the wobble... so, if your bike / fork / something has some issue, a lighter wheel is gonna be effected more easily.

mikerthebiker
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2024 6:45 pm

by mikerthebiker

ChinaCycling wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:47 am
mikerthebiker wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 5:03 pm
ChinaCycling wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:59 am
spdntrxi wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:40 am
you can argue wider front for stability will make you aero overall... but at 0 yaw and probably other yaws as well.. if you are steady you will NOT be more aero on a wider wheel like CLX11 or CRs
@ChinaCycling

I wouldn't deal in such certainties when talking about aero. I agree at 0 yaw a narrower wheel alone will (probably) be more aero than a wider one... but, you have to also think about how the wheel is interacting with the downtube, how the rim is keeping the air away from the spokes, etc, etc. So, I wouldn't like to bet money on which one is faster as a whole.

As always, the only way to be sure is to test it.
So, I've had several episodes of the death wobble with this wheelset (I don't think ENVEs were quite as frequent). Any advice on what could cause this? I know this can be weight specific as well, I'm always around 85-90kg. With my equipment, I probably come near the weigh limit. But could this have anything to do with the wheelset hub bearings or anything with the wheelset itself? I might check with my LBS about the headset as well, but I'm just trying to eliminate factors here to have more confidence with downhill speed.

Thank you!
If you had it (but not as frequently) with the ENVEs, it sounds like an underlying issue. The lighter rims mean a lot less gyroscopic effect resisting the wobble... so, if your bike / fork / something has some issue, a lighter wheel is gonna be effected more easily.
Well come to think of it, I don't think I actually ever had anything that bad with the ENVEs 3.4. but at the same time I had the legacy Ventum NS1. I upgraded to the new NS1 frame with all of my same components and that's when I put the crafts on. Any advice on where to go from here? Does the increased depth of wheelset have something to do with it as well?

by Weenie


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Nickldn
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

mikerthebiker wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 2:19 pm
ChinaCycling wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:47 am
mikerthebiker wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 5:03 pm
ChinaCycling wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:59 am


@ChinaCycling

I wouldn't deal in such certainties when talking about aero. I agree at 0 yaw a narrower wheel alone will (probably) be more aero than a wider one... but, you have to also think about how the wheel is interacting with the downtube, how the rim is keeping the air away from the spokes, etc, etc. So, I wouldn't like to bet money on which one is faster as a whole.

As always, the only way to be sure is to test it.
So, I've had several episodes of the death wobble with this wheelset (I don't think ENVEs were quite as frequent). Any advice on what could cause this? I know this can be weight specific as well, I'm always around 85-90kg. With my equipment, I probably come near the weigh limit. But could this have anything to do with the wheelset hub bearings or anything with the wheelset itself? I might check with my LBS about the headset as well, but I'm just trying to eliminate factors here to have more confidence with downhill speed.

Thank you!
If you had it (but not as frequently) with the ENVEs, it sounds like an underlying issue. The lighter rims mean a lot less gyroscopic effect resisting the wobble... so, if your bike / fork / something has some issue, a lighter wheel is gonna be effected more easily.
Well come to think of it, I don't think I actually ever had anything that bad with the ENVEs 3.4. but at the same time I had the legacy Ventum NS1. I upgraded to the new NS1 frame with all of my same components and that's when I put the crafts on. Any advice on where to go from here? Does the increased depth of wheelset have something to do with it as well?
Show us a photo of your bike, including saddle position and bars/stem. Might make it easier to see if position/weight distribution could be a factor.

User avatar
patliean1
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:51 pm

by patliean1

I recently did a 185km ride on my CS5060 + SL8

Spending 6 hours alone in the countryside with punchy clumbs, gusty winds and torrental downpour. I had a lot of time to reconsider how I felt about these wheels. Pairing the CRWs to both my Giant Propel and Tavelo Attack, crosswind instability (front wheel) was pretty knarly at times. On a couple of occasions whenever I'd hit above 55-60k on a descent, I had to really dial it back in the crosswinds. This has never been a problem with either my Hyper 65s or my Hyper D67s. Not gonna lie I was pretty bummed about this, and basically meant I couldn't use these wheels for descending and windy days above 30kph winds.

However, CS5060 with my SL8 is dang near FLAWLESS. No unusual instability to speak on. The entire ride dynamic is very comfortable on rough pavement yet super responsive when the pace picks up. Acceleration is immediate. Even on my weekly fast training rides, I found myself having to freewheel more often than others around simply because my ability to maintain speed. While my other "fast" wheels seem to experience speed like an 18-wheeler, these just "float" over the road gracefully.

Here is the problem: How much of this change in dynamics is due to the SL8 frame? Is Specialized's wind tunnel testing actually effective? Geometry maybe? Perhaps my bike position on the SL8 is more balanced than on my Propel and Attack? Way too many variables to make any tangible conclusions. All I can say my is SL8 has pushed these CS5060 to the very top of my favorite wheels. Close 2nd being the Magene Exar DB508 Ultra and the Hyper D67 3rd.


Nickldn
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

mikerthebiker wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:00 pm
ImagePXL_20240512_010307418 (1).jpg
Nice bike and nice wheels! :D

Hard to say in any weight distribution issues, but your saddle is quite far forward so your weight will be over the front and so the back wheel could be quite light especially on descents.

Is it possible to move the saddle back and try a ride profile which you know causes issues?
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

S-Works SL8 Dune White SRAM Red AXS Craft CS5060 wheels Roval Rapide bars 6.6kg

hannawald
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

Nickldn wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:06 pm
mikerthebiker wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:00 pm
ImagePXL_20240512_010307418 (1).jpg
Nice bike and nice wheels! :D

Hard to say in any weight distribution issues, but your saddle is quite far forward so your weight will be over the front and so the back wheel could be quite light especially on descents.

Is it possible to move the saddle back and try a ride profile which you know causes issues?
Saddle forward? It seems he uses offset seatpost and it is pushed on the rails backwards so he can´t move it back...

pushpush
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:10 am

by pushpush

patliean1 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:19 pm
I recently did a 185km ride on my CS5060 + SL8

Spending 6 hours alone in the countryside with punchy clumbs, gusty winds and torrental downpour. I had a lot of time to reconsider how I felt about these wheels. Pairing the CRWs to both my Giant Propel and Tavelo Attack, crosswind instability (front wheel) was pretty knarly at times. On a couple of occasions whenever I'd hit above 55-60k on a descent, I had to really dial it back in the crosswinds. This has never been a problem with either my Hyper 65s or my Hyper D67s. Not gonna lie I was pretty bummed about this, and basically meant I couldn't use these wheels for descending and windy days above 30kph winds.
Paired with my SL7 (56 fwiw) front wheel crosswind instability at medium+ speeds has been my experience as well. No better or worse than Rapide CLX, but still problematic. Two different bikes in two different sizes with different cockpits and seats and even different crank lengths. No variable crosswind and they are amazing. Add some variable crosswind and they range from unpredictable to outright scary depending on speed.

Of late, I've been running a 35mm Farsport Hyper front with the 60mm CRW rear. This is proving to be a fantastic combination. I was concerned about the aero penalty of the shallower wheel but I've been PRing all kinds of rolling flat and small climbs (<1k') despite being less aero. On descent, at high speed, and in the wind this setup is hugely confidence-inspiring. It looks a little goofy to be sure, but it works. :D

User avatar
patliean1
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:51 pm

by patliean1

pushpush wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:16 pm
patliean1 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:19 pm
I recently did a 185km ride on my CS5060 + SL8

Spending 6 hours alone in the countryside with punchy clumbs, gusty winds and torrental downpour. I had a lot of time to reconsider how I felt about these wheels. Pairing the CRWs to both my Giant Propel and Tavelo Attack, crosswind instability (front wheel) was pretty knarly at times. On a couple of occasions whenever I'd hit above 55-60k on a descent, I had to really dial it back in the crosswinds. This has never been a problem with either my Hyper 65s or my Hyper D67s. Not gonna lie I was pretty bummed about this, and basically meant I couldn't use these wheels for descending and windy days above 30kph winds.
Paired with my SL7 (56 fwiw) front wheel crosswind instability at medium+ speeds has been my experience as well. No better or worse than Rapide CLX, but still problematic. Two different bikes in two different sizes with different cockpits and seats and even different crank lengths. No variable crosswind and they are amazing. Add some variable crosswind and they range from unpredictable to outright scary depending on speed.

Of late, I've been running a 35mm Farsport Hyper front with the 60mm CRW rear. This is proving to be a fantastic combination. I was concerned about the aero penalty of the shallower wheel but I've been PRing all kinds of rolling flat and small climbs (<1k') despite being less aero. On descent, at high speed, and in the wind this setup is hugely confidence-inspiring. It looks a little goofy to be sure, but it works. :D
I have a ride coming up with 2200m of climbing across 160km. No real difficcult sustained climbs, but I do expect the descents to reach 55+kph.
My plan is to swap the CRWs with a set of Nepest Maui 45s. The wheels specs and weight are identical Elite Drive 45s, with exception of a star ratchet hub versus pawl design. Only 20g less than the CS5060s depsite being much more shallow. But should offer just a tad more confidence in the crosswinds.

I am valso ery tempted to order a CRW 40mm front wheel from PP just for the climbing days and added security.

Nickldn
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

hannawald wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:04 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:06 pm
mikerthebiker wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:00 pm
ImagePXL_20240512_010307418 (1).jpg
Nice bike and nice wheels! :D

Hard to say in any weight distribution issues, but your saddle is quite far forward so your weight will be over the front and so the back wheel could be quite light especially on descents.

Is it possible to move the saddle back and try a ride profile which you know causes issues?
Saddle forward? It seems he uses offset seatpost and it is pushed on the rails backwards so he can´t move it back...
?????? There seems to be at least 10mm space to move the saddle back.
1000024500.jpg
Not everyone can have a well balanced bike with a saddle that isn't far back. Depends on many factors, such as height and torso length.

Road bikes depend on <48% weight on the front.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

S-Works SL8 Dune White SRAM Red AXS Craft CS5060 wheels Roval Rapide bars 6.6kg

toxin
Posts: 931
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

Thats still a lot of setback tbh

mikerthebiker
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2024 6:45 pm

by mikerthebiker

Nickldn wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 11:08 pm
hannawald wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:04 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:06 pm
mikerthebiker wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:00 pm
ImagePXL_20240512_010307418 (1).jpg
Nice bike and nice wheels! :D

Hard to say in any weight distribution issues, but your saddle is quite far forward so your weight will be over the front and so the back wheel could be quite light especially on descents.

Is it possible to move the saddle back and try a ride profile which you know causes issues?
Saddle forward? It seems he uses offset seatpost and it is pushed on the rails backwards so he can´t move it back...
?????? There seems to be at least 10mm space to move the saddle back.

1000024500.jpg

Not everyone can have a well balanced bike with a saddle that isn't far back. Depends on many factors, such as height and torso length.

Road bikes depend on <48% weight on the front.
This is something I might try tomorrow...I am 6'3" with long arms, so is the possible scenario to the the solution just to move weight from the front of the bike to the back?

hannawald
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

You might try that but it might just be the opposite and you might need to put your saddle more forward. Because from what I see now is that you have quite a lot of setback. 73 seat tube angle, setback seatpost, saddle back...
Speed wobble might appear in the speeds above 50km/h when freewheeling. Many reasons - your position is too forward or too back, you have a high position (lots of spacers - check), not enough stiff frame (probably - you have a bigger size)...stiffness helps so if there is a play in the headset, wrong tension on spokes, out of the center wheel...all can contribute. Also wider tires help...
Source:
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/roa ... stop-them/

Nickldn
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

1) By far the biggest issue is headset tightness. If your headset is not tight then speed wobbles will follow. Hold your bike by its bars and put your front brake on, now rock it forwards and backwards. You should not see any movement in the gap between the top of the fork crown and bottom of the bike frame. If the gap changes when you move the bike with the brake on then you'll need to tighten the headset.

2) Key message with weight distribution here is to play around with your saddle position, which significantly affects weight distribution, to find out if this can solve or reduce the speed wobbles.

3) Spacers are another interesting area. I have found some bikes don't handle well with more than a couple of centimeters of headset spacers, steering becomes vague, etc. Not sure how that would affect you as you have a fair saddle to bar drop, but it's worth thinking more about and removing a spacer for a 'test run'.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

S-Works SL8 Dune White SRAM Red AXS Craft CS5060 wheels Roval Rapide bars 6.6kg

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



pushpush
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:10 am

by pushpush

When checking your headset bearing fitment.... Don't rely purely on grabbing the front brake and rocking. Many times the wheel/disc/pads will all rock back and forth as a unit a couple of mm. Instead, I prefer to stick my thumb over the gap between the stem and the top of the frame (where the top bearing is seated). Then grab a front brake and rock. Feel for movement between the two with your thumb. This is more reliable than feeling your brake pads shift around and trying to eyeball it.

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