Craft Racing wheels - carbon spokes 1180g

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

Moderator: robbosmans

Forum rules
The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
Nickldn
Posts: 1896
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

I can confirm it's not a GP5000S TR issue.

Just tried a Pirelli P Zero TLR SL in the same size and with the same result.

Must be the rim or the tape.

da123
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

Nickldn wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:05 pm
I can confirm it's not a GP5000S TR issue.

Just tried a Pirelli P Zero TLR SL in the same size and with the same result.

Must be the rim or the tape.
I'm really hoping it is the tape...

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



da123
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

I've messaged Panda Podium directly, so hopefully we'll have a response on the forum soon.

Nickldn
Posts: 1896
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

As have I. Let's hope we get a good response from PP. I'd like to get the tyre beads seated.

Sander7721
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:41 pm

by Sander7721

Is this problem for tubeless only?
I run tubes and never had any issues but I pretty much had a set when they were released last year


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
SL8 Maganta 54CM 6kgs
Winspace SLC 2.0

ChinaCycling
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:49 am

by ChinaCycling

Hey guys, I actually switched back to tubes for all (most) my bikes recently, so have actually never really ran the crafts tubeless myself so can't add much other than anecdontal stuff. I'm out of the office at the Taipei bike show, but Craft are looiking into it. I had a look at the CAD drawing for the rim and the hook looks fine too. So anecdontaly no customers have come to use with this, but again, it's not an every day thing... because tubeless doesnt usually have sudden loss of pressure, so you usually stop and fix the problem before you get to 0 PSI, so I guess not many people have encountered it. Also anecdontaly, amongst all the wheels / tires I have ran tubeless in the past. Some come off the rim at 0 psi, and some have to be cut off the rim (I'm looking at you GP5000TL) will look deeper into this when I get back to Panda HQ, but like I say Craft are also looking into it.

Obviously the beads are fully seated when pressurized otherwise you wouldn't be able to see the "safety line" on the tire and you'd be leaking air / sealant like a mofo. So you're not gonna have a hookless-style disaster when riding.

Anyway, I'm curious about the tape theory too. Will wait for the results from Craft.

Jaisen
Posts: 479
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

I'm no engineer, I can only brain storm and speculate, but I would imagine the popping sound we hear when the tires are being mounted onto the rim is the tire bead compressing out all the remaining air pockets, creating a kind of vacuum seal between the tire bead and the rim. If you don't hear the snap and pop, you couldn't be sure you have a perfectly air tight contact between the rim and bead.

In theory when under pressure/load and during impacts, that might make the likelihood of getting separation higher. Lanterne Rouge had a podcast earlier today where guest Peak Torque was talking about the hookless fiasco and during the discussion he was explaining how having sealant in the system can actually make tire retention worse. The liquid sealant actually reduces friction ever so slightly and can make it easier for the tire to slip off.

So if my air pocket theory is in anyway not crazy, though the sealant might stop the tire from leaking air and though the sealant might fill the voids ever so slightly, we still don't have a proper tire installation/mounting. I know the CRW wheels are hooked, and that is great for extra safety, but I am still a little concerned for the lack of a pop and the fact the tires actually slip down when deflated. Hopefully we get extra clarity soon.

ChinaCycling
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:49 am

by ChinaCycling

Jaisen wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:44 am
I'm no engineer, I can only brain storm and speculate, but I would imagine the popping sound we hear when the tires are being mounted onto the rim is the tire bead compressing out all the remaining air pockets, creating a kind of vacuum seal between the tire bead and the rim. If you don't hear the snap and pop, you couldn't be sure you have a perfectly air tight contact between the rim and bead.

In theory when under pressure/load and during impacts, that might make the likelihood of getting separation higher. Lanterne Rouge had a podcast earlier today where guest Peak Torque was talking about the hookless fiasco and during the discussion he was explaining how having sealant in the system can actually make tire retention worse. The liquid sealant actually reduces friction ever so slightly and can make it easier for the tire to slip off.

So if my air pocket theory is in anyway not crazy, though the sealant might stop the tire from leaking air and though the sealant might fill the voids ever so slightly, we still don't have a proper tire installation/mounting. I know the CRW wheels are hooked, and that is great for extra safety, but I am still a little concerned for the lack of a pop and the fact the tires actually slip down when deflated. Hopefully we get extra clarity soon.
I've not watched that Peak Torque video... but that also sounds so strange. Because then there'd be a difference between putting sealant in before or after you seat the tire. Obviously some people seat the tire, then put sealant in through the valve hole (so you'd have almost no sealant on the mating surface between the bead and hooks. Then sometimes if you have a hard to seat tire, and it all gets messy putting a tube in, taking a tube out, trying to mount one side, etc etc, a situation like that could end up with a bunch of sealant in there.

da123
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

ChinaCycling wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:12 am
Hey guys, I actually switched back to tubes for all (most) my bikes recently, so have actually never really ran the crafts tubeless myself so can't add much other than anecdontal stuff. I'm out of the office at the Taipei bike show, but Craft are looiking into it. I had a look at the CAD drawing for the rim and the hook looks fine too. So anecdontaly no customers have come to use with this, but again, it's not an every day thing... because tubeless doesnt usually have sudden loss of pressure, so you usually stop and fix the problem before you get to 0 PSI, so I guess not many people have encountered it. Also anecdontaly, amongst all the wheels / tires I have ran tubeless in the past. Some come off the rim at 0 psi, and some have to be cut off the rim (I'm looking at you GP5000TL) will look deeper into this when I get back to Panda HQ, but like I say Craft are also looking into it.

Obviously the beads are fully seated when pressurized otherwise you wouldn't be able to see the "safety line" on the tire and you'd be leaking air / sealant like a mofo. So you're not gonna have a hookless-style disaster when riding.

Anyway, I'm curious about the tape theory too. Will wait for the results from Craft.
Thanks Joe. For what it's worth, this is the response I've had from Tom. It repeats what you're saying, but also includes some extra info and confirms on the width of the tape, which as I mentioned before does seem quite wide for the internal width. I'm not sure if the picture Tom sent will come out okay or not, however if not it is just a picture of a bike wheel on a jig, so I think is illustrative only (i.e. its not a video proving or disproving what he says about the testing).

------------------

The 5060 wheelset is using 30mm tubeless tape on the front rim, and 26mm in the rear.

CRW has tested with flat tires on a rolling machine and the tire won't come off whatever the angle it is going, I think the rim hooks are doing their job properly.
4a676045804c2aa587ec55d96f2fca9.png

But as Joe sent in the WW thread, it's not an every day thing... because tubeless doesnt usually have sudden loss of pressure, so you usually stop and fix the problem before you get to 0 PSI. Also, wider tubeless tapes will seal the air better in theory, so they are less likely to lose pressure

-------------

Nickldn
Posts: 1896
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

I have had some success today with putting soapy water around the tyre bead before inflation. :D

Sure enough a few pops were heard and now the tyre is sticking to the rim on one side when deflated.

Soapy water reduces friction and so the force required for the tyre bead to seat. My theory is still the tubless tape is wide and makes the interface just a bit too tight.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

da123
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

Nickldn wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:13 am
I have had some success today with putting soapy water around the tyre bead before inflation. :D

Sure enough a few pops were heard and now the tyre is sticking to the rim on one side when deflated.

Soapy water reduces friction and so the force required for the tyre bead to seat. My theory is still the tubless tape is wide and makes the interface just a bit too tight.
That's good to know, cheers. I've received my GP5000s that I'll use on my new 5060s today, together with some narrower rim tape, so I'll experiment and report back once I have chance. Your experience suggests a friction issue, so would still be interested to find out if the very wide tape is contributing to that.

Jaisen
Posts: 479
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

ChinaCycling wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:03 am
Jaisen wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:44 am
I'm no engineer, I can only brain storm and speculate, but I would imagine the popping sound we hear when the tires are being mounted onto the rim is the tire bead compressing out all the remaining air pockets, creating a kind of vacuum seal between the tire bead and the rim. If you don't hear the snap and pop, you couldn't be sure you have a perfectly air tight contact between the rim and bead.

In theory when under pressure/load and during impacts, that might make the likelihood of getting separation higher. Lanterne Rouge had a podcast earlier today where guest Peak Torque was talking about the hookless fiasco and during the discussion he was explaining how having sealant in the system can actually make tire retention worse. The liquid sealant actually reduces friction ever so slightly and can make it easier for the tire to slip off.

So if my air pocket theory is in anyway not crazy, though the sealant might stop the tire from leaking air and though the sealant might fill the voids ever so slightly, we still don't have a proper tire installation/mounting. I know the CRW wheels are hooked, and that is great for extra safety, but I am still a little concerned for the lack of a pop and the fact the tires actually slip down when deflated. Hopefully we get extra clarity soon.
I've not watched that Peak Torque video... but that also sounds so strange. Because then there'd be a difference between putting sealant in before or after you seat the tire. Obviously some people seat the tire, then put sealant in through the valve hole (so you'd have almost no sealant on the mating surface between the bead and hooks. Then sometimes if you have a hard to seat tire, and it all gets messy putting a tube in, taking a tube out, trying to mount one side, etc etc, a situation like that could end up with a bunch of sealant in there.
My apologies if I didn't express myself clearly and mislead, Peak Torque wasn't mentioning sealant and friction with regards to tire installation. He was explaining how tires can slip off rims in the context of hookless rims, and that is where he was explaining how when there are no hooks and there is sealant in the system, it is easier for the tire to come off.

I was just extrapolating from that to explain why I think getting that perfect tire mount is important. Our aim isn't just to have an airtight system. As far as CRW wheels, it seems like this is an uncommon issue anyway and at least one poster has since said by adding a little soap and water he actually got the tires to snap in place, so that is reassuring as well.
Last edited by Jaisen on Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

toxin
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

Jaisen wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:14 pm
He was explaining how tires can slip off rims in the context of hookless rims, and that is where he was explaining how when there are no hooks and there is sealant in the system, it is easier for the tire to come off.

Jaisen
Posts: 479
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

toxin wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 5:35 pm
Jaisen wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:14 pm
He was explaining how tires can slip off rims in the context of hookless rims, and that is where he was explaining how when there are no hooks and there is sealant in the system, it is easier for the tire to come off.
:up: Fixed :thumbup:

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



da123
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

da123 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:28 am
Hexsense wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:28 am
da123 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:12 am
Hexsense wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 5:28 pm
But why would you?
CRW is especially fast because of low number of carbon spokes. Their best selling points are those special hub and their low number of carbon spokes.

The rim seems to be heavier than Light-Bicycle WR50 Flyweight or the equivalent from Farsports.
How have you determined this? The rims of my 4045 have the weight written on them, and they are circa 350g each. That seems pretty light to me.
then 4045 is pretty light then.
I estimated rim weight of the 5060 pair versus what 24 steel spokes and 21 carbon spokes can get.

LB WR50 flyweight Cx-ray 24 spokes can be 1360g
LB WR50 flyweight 21 carbon spokes with heavy-ish hub is still 1320g
CRW 5060 with 20 spokes are 1285g, despite one less spoke per wheel and lighter hub and much narrower rear wheel.

LB WR50 (32mm wide) rim is 420g each.
LB AR56 (30mm wide) can also be requested as light version at 415g.
So yeah, narrow and shallow CRW seems light. But the 5060 rims maybe less weight competitive.
I'm not sure I follow your logic. You seem to ignore the fact that the front wheel on the 5060 is wider that the LB rim at 34mm, and that the rear wheel of the 5060 is both 10mm deeper, and not 'much narrower' (it is 29mm v 32). The LB rims are also quoted at '+/- 15g', so could feasibly be 435g and within spec. Impossible to know until you actually weighed one, but I'd be surprised if the 5060 rims weren't also in the 410 - 430g ballpark.
I replaced the tape on my 5060 wheelset, and the rims have the weight printed on them:

Front (34mm wide, 25 internal, 50mm deep) : 418g
Rear (29 wide, 21 internal, 60mm deep) : 440g

So on par with the Farsports I'd say.

Post Reply