Princeton Wake 6560 Evolution vs Zipp NSW454 vs ENVE 4.5

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mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 245
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Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

DogmaHiFi wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:18 am
We were descending together at about 75kmh, during a u turn his tyre removed from his zipp wheel.
He ended in hospital allegently the pressure was 70 psi
Which tyre was he using?

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DogmaHiFi
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Location: Athens Greece
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by DogmaHiFi

Pzero

toxin
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

Interesting that almost all of these cases have one thing in common. They're Zipp wheels

Nickldn
Posts: 1896
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

Until recently three main hookless brands:

Zipp
Giant/Cadex
Enve

Now joined by Scott (Syncros), Hunt and Chinese brands on some products.

Guessing Zipp has the biggest/highest profile market share so you see more failures.

Giant and Cadex on the other hand are probably paired more with own brand tyres, which reduces failures (same for Enve as well to some extent).

goodboyr
Posts: 1497
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Location: Canada

by goodboyr

This is my personal hot button. Conclusions are drawn from anecdotal reports and then a pseudo statistical statement is made. Sounds like we've decided based on this type of "data" that riding on Zipp hookless wheels with 28 width tires is dangerous.

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Nickldn
Posts: 1896
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

Sure, but this is a forum and so speculation and "educated guessing" is rifle.

Besides which there is no real 'data' available.

mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 245
Joined: Tue May 16, 2023 3:08 pm
Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

DogmaHiFi wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2024 6:44 pm
Pzero
Interesting.

I've noticed a few high profile failures over the last few months in pro races, and so many of them seem to be Vittoria.

Very anecdotal and may just be because there are simply more pro teams using them (no idea if that's true) but it kinda reinforces a thought I had about running Corsa Pros on 353nsw.

They are much easier to seat than a gp5000str, seem to be shorter and far less rigid at lower pressures.

I've switched to gp5000s now.

goodboyr
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by goodboyr

Nickldn wrote:Sure, but this is a forum and so speculation and "educated guessing" is rifle.

Besides which there is no real 'data' available.
ImageImageImage

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JWTS
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:44 pm

by JWTS

I wonder how many of these tire blow-offs are caused by inserts that are improperly-sized or incorrectly installed? I mean, by definition the liner used in DeGendt's crash was out of spec (the only liner suitable for a 26mm tire is the small, which is designed for rims that are 21mm wide. Hard to say, but that liner looks like a medium or a large, that is spec'd for wider tires.

It's worth nothing as well that De Lie's crash last year involved a liner coming out of the tire and bead blowing off on a hooked rim. Given the failure move on DeGent's crash, I don't really see hookless as being the culprit here (no sideloads JRA on a smooth section of road?). A liner installed incorrectly or a damaged bead seem a lot more likely.

Mind you, I'm hookless agnostic. I use them to train on w/32's and pressure at 50psi or less, and I would not run a 28 at higher pressure hookless personally. But I think there's a bit more to this than meets the eye. The tire was out of spec. The liner was out of spec. No idea what the pressure was, but I'm willing to bet that is out of spec as well.

toxin
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

Been a lot more failures in pros without liners than with

JWTS
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:44 pm

by JWTS

toxin wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 12:09 am
Been a lot more failures in pros without liners than with
That has nothing to do with a mis-spec'd or incorrectly installed insert potentially causing a crash, though?

spdntrxi
Posts: 5836
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

JWTS wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:15 am
toxin wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 12:09 am
Been a lot more failures in pros without liners than with
That has nothing to do with a mis-spec'd or incorrectly installed insert potentially causing a crash, though?
I also do not see how a smaller liner has anything to do with.
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xiyuwang
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2024 2:21 pm

by xiyuwang

120% no for Zipp, weak spoke tension, spoke can have noise due to rubbing between spokes, weak rim construction (353/454 can have rim crack near the nipples), terrible rachet freehub that requires frequent maintainence otherwise won't work.

Princetion or Enve both looks ok to me, and I will go for DT hubs, probably 240 EXP. Durable and hassle-free, cheap to change the bearings as well. CK's hub is fancier, by I just don't like complicated maintainence procedures.

Being hookless can be concerning for ENVE, but, up to you. Arc 1100 might be another choice, but they are not light, and the internal width is not wide by 'modern' standards. (25c and 28c still works fine, but 28c on 50mm deep arc1100 will not 100% aligned with the outer width)

hannawald
Posts: 1710
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

28C tires on DT Swiss 50 Arc 1100 are still OK. According to Hunts white paper published with Sub50 wheels 28C tires were about 0.5mm narrower than on 21mm ID rims but as for aero DT Swiss were the 2nd fastest wheelset just marginally behind Rovals. They start to struggle with 30C tires but we are talking 2 watts at 45 km/h. They were still better than Zipps 454 NSW.

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xiyuwang
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2024 2:21 pm

by xiyuwang

The 50mm version arc 1100 is slightly narrower compared to 62mm. I am using 25c Conti GP5k on it, looks 100% fit, in terms of width matching. The 62mm rim do sligthly curves out in the middle section of the rim and reaching 27mm wide, so it looks fit with 28c. I guess 28c on 50mm won't hurt as well, as I am not that parictular about such minor differences, but I know people here sometime do become quite picky about such details, so worth mentioning.

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