Carbon spokes in 2022

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The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
woodzyz
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:19 am

by woodzyz

Klaster_1 wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:35 am
woodzyz wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:37 am
Elite has the first carbon spoke wheelset coming out,total 1300g for 45mm deep rim,it is very light even for climbing
https://www.elite-wheels.com/news/new-a ... -available
Not sure about "very light", my 45mm deep wheels are 1100g and cost only 250USD more than Elites.
I mean gravel wheel,If so it would be great,I am interested in what 1100g wheelset are,could you give us a wheelset photo or link,Thanks

by Weenie


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woodzyz
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:19 am

by woodzyz

Could anyone share your carbon spoke wheel riding exprience here? help us to know more about it,Thanks

milanv
Posts: 484
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am

by milanv

Hunt Carbon 4454
wheelie wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:13 pm
https://eu.huntbikewheels.com/collectio ... c-wheelset

Anyone already tested these 44 mm wheels and have opinion about real weight & reliability?
Tnx!
Me in combination of 4454...
"So, I have several hundreds of kilometres on HUNT 4454 UD Carbon and I am impressed...
- Very stiff on every way,
- but also very comfortable in combination with tubeless tyres Schwalbe Pro One TLE (front 25 + rear 28 mm),
- no creaking, carbon spokes are not touching anywhere,
- the rear hub is very very loud, louder than e. g. DT 350 (with ratchet system 36T) / Roval CLX 50 / Roval CL 50,
- H+ lifetime warranty is a big plus."
viewtopic.php?t=164747

Another thousands of kilometres (I have several bikes) and I can confirm all, very satisfied with them.

Erwin
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:13 am
Location: Bavaria

by Erwin

Any experiences with carbon spokes from Lightbicycle? Similar to the Hyper or BTLOS or Hunt? Polaris have had problems and do not sell them anymore.

VeloCris
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:28 am

by VeloCris

stevesbike wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:43 pm
I don't see how buying some carbon spokes would be worthwhile. All I've seen require a carbon spoke-specific hub and I haven't seen any aftermarket ones available. Some of the newer models of wheelsets like the Elites also have offset spoke holes in the rims so the spokes don't contact each other where they overlap in non-radial builds. Abrasion caused by contact at these points has been identified as a potential failure mode, so overall it seems carbon spokes require a complete system.
My wheels are getting built by Lightbicycle with carbon spokes using dt240s is there going to be a problem I see a lot of people say u have to use a special hub but they don’t seem to mind. There’s even a blurb about it on the site

Many carbon-spoked wheels on the market come with a single hub option, which goes against our Full-Custom nature. A major difficulty in the hub compatibility of a carbon spoke is the slightly wider midsection of the spokes, which can make threading through the holes of most hubs difficult. To solve this, we’ve designed a segmented hub-end construction: by simply unscrewing and re-screwing the spokes to hubs from Bitex, DT Swiss, Carbon-Ti, or any other straight pull brand.

aeroisnteverything
Posts: 727
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:43 pm

by aeroisnteverything

Re LB: the weight difference vs Sapim CX Ray is 20g. Price difference is $200. Potential downside: 1) worse aero performance of the spokes due to being thicker and wider; 2) carbon just breaks and does not bend. Is it really worth it???

User avatar
C36
Posts: 1956
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:27 pm
Re LB: the weight difference vs Sapim CX Ray is 20g. Price difference is $200. Potential downside: 1) worse aero performance of the spokes due to being thicker and wider; 2) carbon just breaks and does not bend. Is it really worth it???
Upsides, 1) regain stiffness lost with the spoke count reduction and the Cx-ray structural flexibility, 2) Aero, still to be assessed but as long as the ratio is preserved, impact on rotational drag is not clear, especially under lateral wind. Stiffness and strength also allow to reduce the number of spokes.

Oncarbon
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:05 am

by Oncarbon

cajer wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:34 pm
I'm intrested in more aerofoil shaped spokes over the current mostly flat bladed ones. Carbon may allow that.
I heard 9VELO make very good carbon spoke wheels https://www.9velo.com/collections/carbon-spoke. Just refer to their IG for a coupon, you can get a very good price.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 10919
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

C36 wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:37 pm
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:27 pm
Re LB: the weight difference vs Sapim CX Ray is 20g. Price difference is $200. Potential downside: 1) worse aero performance of the spokes due to being thicker and wider; 2) carbon just breaks and does not bend. Is it really worth it???
Upsides, 1) regain stiffness lost with the spoke count reduction and the Cx-ray structural flexibility, 2) Aero, still to be assessed but as long as the ratio is preserved, impact on rotational drag is not clear, especially under lateral wind. Stiffness and strength also allow to reduce the number of spokes.

Stronger, stiffer spokes could reduce the reliance on bracing angle and allow for closer spaced hub flanges too. Though at some point you just end up with a Bike-Ahead Biturbo or Black Inc Five instead of using conventional looking spokes.

cajer
Posts: 569
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:26 am

by cajer

Oncarbon wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:02 am
cajer wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:34 pm
I'm intrested in more aerofoil shaped spokes over the current mostly flat bladed ones. Carbon may allow that.
I heard 9VELO make very good carbon spoke wheels https://www.9velo.com/collections/carbon-spoke. Just refer to their IG for a coupon, you can get a very good price.
That's a wheelset not a aerofoil shaped spoke?

User avatar
C36
Posts: 1956
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:19 am
Stronger, stiffer spokes could reduce the reliance on bracing angle and allow for closer spaced hub flanges too. Though at some point you just end up with a Bike-Ahead Biturbo or Black Inc Five instead of using conventional looking spokes.
3-5 Spoked wheels do have quite a lot of stiffness problems, or limitation outside TT type of applications, Biturbo, with bigger spokes, won't be very aero (eyballing it here).

Spinergy Rev-X were a inbetween case where the blades stiffness allowed a very narrow bracing angle (and on top of my head were extremely aero quite faster than specialized tri-spokes for example), symetrical front and rear-wheels and ultrahigh stiffness (at the cost of a heavy weight).
Closest to us, the Lun Hypers reach 57N/mm on the front wheel. That's less than than the old -heavier- Lw Gen3 with 20 spokes that also have very wide front hub and in the same region than Mavic CCU or Corima MCC. Definitively could reduce the bracing angle, drop 10% stiffness and still be ahead of many popular wheels.

Now, what I haven't seen measured is the impact of brace angle in aero and how impactfull it is on wheel drag.

Edit: just for the sake of being complete... 1995 wind tunel data with narrow-brace-angle Spinergys
http://www.sportsci.org/traintech/aerow ... #zinn#zinn

UpFromOne
Posts: 1041
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:23 am
Location: Olympic Nat'l Park, WA

by UpFromOne

I use EIE carbon SP spokes in my builds. They have titanium heads and threaded ends. Take regular 14g nipples.
They are actually oval (not round), 1.9mm x 2.3mm.
Spec reports are IMO very encouraging.

milanv
Posts: 484
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am

by milanv

UpFromOne wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:55 am
I use EIE carbon SP spokes in my builds. They have titanium heads and threaded ends. Take regular 14g nipples.
They are actually oval (not round), 1.9mm x 2.3mm.
Spec reports are IMO very encouraging.
Very interesting, with standard hubs, e. g. DT Swiss? Please, can you post any pics of whole wheelsets?

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AscentBikes
in the industry
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:33 am
Contact:

by AscentBikes

Hello all,
I wanted to give a little bit of perspective as a wheelbuilder. I own Ascent Bikes, so take what I say from that viewpoint.

Initial foray into Carbon Spokes
My interest in carbon spokes came about after seeing them at the Taipei Bike Show pre-COVID. The weight and stiffness numbers were impressive, but one of the key things that prevented us from adopting carbon spokes was that they were not compatible with standard hubs. A bespoke hub would be required, and we did not want to compromise user choice in this matter.

Polaris 69mm and the recall
It was around mid-2021 that we found a brand of carbon spokes that were compatible with standard straightpull hubs. These had a spoke head and threaded end bonded to the carbon - they were thin enough to fit through the spoke holes (~1.7x2.3mm). For our Polaris 69mm wheels (released end 2021), our top-end wheels with DT180 hubs were supposed to be made with carbon spokes, in order to reduce the weight of the rim even further.

We did the durability testing, including sending the wheels to Belgium for fatigue bump and sprint testing - and the test wheels passed. However, as history would have it, the spokes faced delamination issues from the heads/threads in production and we performed a global recall of the Polaris 69 DT180. Winspace and Elite use proprietary hubs with taper-lock nipples, so they do not have this issue. However, the spokes used by EIE seem susceptible to the same kind of failure mode.

Why we are currently sticking to CX Rays
That being said, even if the delamination issues are solved, there are a couple of reasons why we believe in sticking to CX Rays.

1) Excessive stiffness of the spokes (esp the wide, bladed carbon spokes) means that users tend to lower their tire pressure to compensate - this increases rolling resistance, and below a certain point, you compromise cornering control. Having slightly stretchier CX Rays allows tire pressure to be raised a little, for better rolling resistance.

2) Ability to get a replacement in the field - Break a spoke while traveling, and most shops would not have a replacement available.

3) Ease of maintenance - Most of the wheels with carbon spokes today are internally adjusted (you have to remove the tire, sealant, rim tape etc to true the wheel), so it's very hard to make quick repairs. Some rims tend to deform a little when used tubeless due to the large amount of force, and having an internally-adjusted setup makes it impossible to dial the wheel in while the tire is mounted.

4) Choice of any hub - You can build with whatever hub you want. It'll work.

I think the best places to use carbon spokes would be smooth roads, and where local maintenance and support is readily available.
However, as we are positioning Polaris as a all-road, all-condition wheelset, it makes more sense for us to stick to reliable CX Rays in this case.

Hope this perspective helps!
QX
Founder
Ascent Bikes

by Weenie


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Hexsense
Posts: 2965
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

@AscentBikes.
Have you done any wind tunnel test whether the thicker carbon spokes are less aero than the lower profile cx-rays?

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