Let's See Your Time Trial bike

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MarkTwain
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by MarkTwain

RyanH wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:17 pm
CrankAddictsRich wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 12:38 am
A couple of pics form my TT this past Saturday... horrendous weather, pissing down rain. It is a 13.7 km course... essentially a big ractangle with three 90* turns. I averaged 329 watts, 178 bpm, and 45 kph. I took 2nd in the Cat 1/2/3 class, missing the top step by 10.8 seconds.
What power meter are you using? Your watts/speed seems off. A CdA of 0.22 seems really low for a big boy :wink: . I think your Merckx style TT's suggested the same CdA which would be more far fetched. Congrats on the results though, those speeds are legit, especially the Merckx style ones.
If this were a comment about his bike Rich would take it on board, but a reasonable comment on his build and he's in denial... Rich, Ryan is trying to help. Not be a jerk. You are a 'bigger guy'.

And if I have noted anything from racing, comparing speeds around the world is a bit of a fools errand. So much can vary them. Best to compare to what the fastest on the day were doing. And I kinda feel they would be doing more than 4.5w/kg.

Stoo
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by Stoo

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CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

MarkTwain wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:32 pm
If this were a comment about his bike Rich would take it on board, but a reasonable comment on his build and he's in denial... Rich, Ryan is trying to help. Not be a jerk. You are a 'bigger guy'.

And if I have noted anything from racing, comparing speeds around the world is a bit of a fools errand. So much can vary them. Best to compare to what the fastest on the day were doing. And I kinda feel they would be doing more than 4.5w/kg.
If I am a bigger guy, then so is he because we're basically the same build. I think both of you are basing this idea of me being a "bigger guy" on the photo that shows me pushing 500watts to the finish line in full diaphragm breathing mode. Look at even the skinniest pro riders in this situation and they look the same. Am I a climber, not by any means, but I'm not overweight. I'm actually in the best shape I've ever been in, in my life... at 39 years old, I'm fine with that.

MarkTwain
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by MarkTwain

You two are not even close to being the same build! I will stress, nothing wrong with being a 'bigger guy' and congrats on being in the shape of your life only

Ryan

Image

You

Image

if you cannot see how much larger your thighs, upper body and gut is then this is a form of denial nothing can remedy. Ryan has no double chin either Rich. I'm sorry, you do.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bi-ijZxByyQ ... kaddictscc

so embrace it and move on.

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themidge
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by themidge

Why is Ryan wearing full finger gloves??

CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

MarkTwain wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 2:00 am
if you cannot see how much larger your thighs, upper body and gut is then this is a form of denial nothing can remedy. Ryan has no double chin either Rich. I'm sorry, you do.

so embrace it and move on.
No double chin here.. I think what you're seeing in that pic is some loose skin in my neck which is a result of me loosing weight. When I started this whole cycling thing, I was 240 pounds and couldn't ride 3 miles without throwing up. Now I'm 160-164, given the day and time of day that I step on the scale. No denial here, bro... life is work in progress and I'm moving. It's easy to sit on the internet and be anonymous, I'm not.

mentok
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by mentok

themidge wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 8:57 am
Why is Ryan wearing full finger gloves??
I wear full finger gloves on the road as a reformed mountain biker, and I've honestly never thought it was that weird. This photo has made me realise that it looks weird. Thanks :thumbup:
CrankAddictsRich wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:23 am
No double chin here.. I think what you're seeing in that pic is some loose skin in my neck which is a result of me loosing weight. When I started this whole cycling thing, I was 240 pounds and couldn't ride 3 miles without throwing up. Now I'm 160-164, given the day and time of day that I step on the scale. No denial here, bro... life is work in progress and I'm moving. It's easy to sit on the internet and be anonymous, I'm not.
I got the impression that Mark's tongue was firmly in his cheek ;) Perhaps we should all calm down and have another donut?

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by spdntrxi

themidge wrote:Why is Ryan wearing full finger gloves??
Hand model ?
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themidge
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by themidge

Haha! Perhaps not after they melt from the heat inside :D

CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

RyanH wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:01 pm
I use this one for quick checks on power/speed scenarious:

https://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/PowerSp ... arios.aspx

Have you done any Chung method testing? You need a GSC-10 (they're like $30) since GPS isn't accurate enough and Stages may be iffy but I think some on Slowtwich may be getting acceptable results with Stages.

The Rt 29 one was the one on your blog, so I think from June?
Lets get back to aero. I have not done any Chung method testing, but I've often thought about giving it a try. I have two skinsuits I'd like to do it with to see if it makes any difference. My understanding is that basically you try to use the same position and same wattage for set distance on a course to test differences in equipment... or I supose you could use same equipment, same wattage, but alter position to see if one position is more aero. Is there anyr reason why you're specifically listing the GSC-10. I don't use that, I use the Garmin magnetless speed sensor on the hub because I get cadence off my Stages. I'm a long time user of Stages power meters and they definitely had some growing pains early on with the battery door issues etc, but my experience with them has been that they are accurate and reliable enough for my purposes. Am I sure that 100 watts on a Stages is the same as 100 watts on a Quarq or 100 watts on an SRM, no.... but my experience seems to say that 100 watts on the Stages is pretty reliable to 100 watts the next day and the day after etc.. and from bike to bike across 3 diffirent units.

If you want to compare my numbers Non-TT to TT this year on the same course... Last year at Oldman's, I did 19:47, 290 watts, 25.9 mph. This year, 18:19, 324 watts, 27.9 mph. Weather was abviously different. Last year, it rained during warm up, but the course was still damp during race. This year it was flat out downpour. I wouldn't say that either was particularly windy. I was using an 88mm front wheel in both races and felt pretty stable. I was extremely caustious in the corners this year, due to standing water.

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jekyll man
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by jekyll man

CrankAddictsRich wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 3:45 pm
RyanH wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:01 pm
I use this one for quick checks on power/speed scenarious:

https://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/PowerSp ... arios.aspx

Have you done any Chung method testing? You need a GSC-10 (they're like $30) since GPS isn't accurate enough and Stages may be iffy but I think some on Slowtwich may be getting acceptable results with Stages.

The Rt 29 one was the one on your blog, so I think from June?
Lets get back to aero. I have not done any Chung method testing, but I've often thought about giving it a try. I have two skinsuits I'd like to do it with to see if it makes any difference. My understanding is that basically you try to use the same position and same wattage for set distance on a course to test differences in equipment... or I supose you could use same equipment, same wattage, but alter position to see if one position is more aero. Is there anyr reason why you're specifically listing the GSC-10. I don't use that, I use the Garmin magnetless speed sensor on the hub because I get cadence off my Stages. I'm a long time user of Stages power meters and they definitely had some growing pains early on with the battery door issues etc, but my experience with them has been that they are accurate and reliable enough for my purposes. Am I sure that 100 watts on a Stages is the same as 100 watts on a Quarq or 100 watts on an SRM, no.... but my experience seems to say that 100 watts on the Stages is pretty reliable to 100 watts the next day and the day after etc.. and from bike to bike across 3 diffirent units.

If you want to compare my numbers Non-TT to TT this year on the same course... Last year at Oldman's, I did 19:47, 290 watts, 25.9 mph. This year, 18:19, 324 watts, 27.9 mph. Weather was abviously different. Last year, it rained during warm up, but the course was still damp during race. This year it was flat out downpour. I wouldn't say that either was particularly windy. I was using an 88mm front wheel in both races and felt pretty stable. I was extremely caustious in the corners this year, due to standing water.
As Ryan found out, "near enough" isnt exact enough when trying to detect changes that are smaller than the percentage error of the test method or equipment.
Case in point is the use of stages as accuracy probably goes out of the window at different intenities.
Search his real world testing via chung analysis thread from a couple of years ago, or theres a good robust instruction file linked to the TT Forum courtesy of Rob Bartlett.
Plenty of info on Slowtwitch too.
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jekyll man
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by jekyll man

jekyll man wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 4:13 pm
CrankAddictsRich wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 3:45 pm
RyanH wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:01 pm
I use this one for quick checks on power/speed scenarious:

https://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/PowerSp ... arios.aspx

Have you done any Chung method testing? You need a GSC-10 (they're like $30) since GPS isn't accurate enough and Stages may be iffy but I think some on Slowtwich may be getting acceptable results with Stages.

The Rt 29 one was the one on your blog, so I think from June?
Lets get back to aero. I have not done any Chung method testing, but I've often thought about giving it a try. I have two skinsuits I'd like to do it with to see if it makes any difference. My understanding is that basically you try to use the same position and same wattage for set distance on a course to test differences in equipment... or I supose you could use same equipment, same wattage, but alter position to see if one position is more aero. Is there anyr reason why you're specifically listing the GSC-10. I don't use that, I use the Garmin magnetless speed sensor on the hub because I get cadence off my Stages. I'm a long time user of Stages power meters and they definitely had some growing pains early on with the battery door issues etc, but my experience with them has been that they are accurate and reliable enough for my purposes. Am I sure that 100 watts on a Stages is the same as 100 watts on a Quarq or 100 watts on an SRM, no.... but my experience seems to say that 100 watts on the Stages is pretty reliable to 100 watts the next day and the day after etc.. and from bike to bike across 3 diffirent units.

If you want to compare my numbers Non-TT to TT this year on the same course... Last year at Oldman's, I did 19:47, 290 watts, 25.9 mph. This year, 18:19, 324 watts, 27.9 mph. Weather was abviously different. Last year, it rained during warm up, but the course was still damp during race. This year it was flat out downpour. I wouldn't say that either was particularly windy. I was using an 88mm front wheel in both races and felt pretty stable. I was extremely caustious in the corners this year, due to standing water.
As Ryan found out, "near enough" isnt exact enough when trying to detect changes that are smaller than the percentage error of the test method or equipment.
Case in point is the use of stages as accuracy probably goes out of the window at different intenities.
Search his real world testing via chung analysis thread from a couple of years ago, or theres a good robust instruction file linked to the TT Forum courtesy of Rob Bartlett.
Plenty of info on Slowtwitch too.
Edit: I'd get a skinsuit that fits to start with.
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jekyll man
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by jekyll man

@ Mark Twain am i a bigger guy too because it looks like i've got a gut?
Unless i have a few ribs removed, its always going to look like that :roll:
ImageUntitled by jekyll man, on Flickr
35 miles into a 37 mile mountain TT, and its a false flat.


5'9" 142 lbs btw
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RyanH
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by RyanH

Here's the thread:

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... p?t=139992

TL;dr is:
  • Changes in temp can affect lap times (laps were roughly 7 min) by up to 10s or so. Environment variables is significant and without using the full Chung Method protocol, recording bariometric pressure, dew point, temp and altitude, trying to compare two efforts even at the same watts is fraught with problems.
  • Precision and consistency of recording devices is essential. I recommend the GSC-10 because I know how it works, one magnet click per revolution. I don't know how the hub ones work as it might be an accelerometer which is not going to be accurate enough.
  • Choose your course wisely. Find a course with minimal wind, little to no traffic interference and no need to brake or coast. Coasting will mess up your data since your PM will still read power for a few seconds. You want to pedal the entire time.
  • Constant wattage isn't necessary. You can actually do more analysis by varing the wattage as it lets you "tease out" Crr.
  • Don't test something once and move on. My goal was a minimum sample size of 5 and to see if that was consistent enough with itself. This right here will tell you if a Stages is good enough or not. When I started, I tried to use GPS and CdA estimates were fluctuating 10% or so for the same equipment and position. My guess is that you'll see something similar with the Stages. Read this for more on why I question anything provided by a Stages: https://www.thieme-connect.de/products/ ... 043-102945 (you seem to be taking training seriously and at this point, you're probably seeking small improvements now, so why use a device where you're not 100% sure that PR you set was due to the Stages or you?). Anyway, Chung method testing is a good way to test power meters too.
  • It may be useful to get a weather reading device like a Kestrel. I got one but only used it for a week or so as I found the nearest weather station read nearly the same. But, I also identified that the other close station was 5-10* higher because it was on top of the valley and the Rose Bowl was at the bottom so there would be big differences in temp even though we're only talking like 75 feet of elevation diff.

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CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

Ryan... cool info for sure. If i did it, I'd probably use the Rt. 29 course. that is a 10 Mile length of road, fairly flat with some small undulations up and down, but nothing that you'd coast down, unless you wanted to. Minimally, if I was gonna do it, I'd do one length and then a return leg north to see how the wind/elevation changes effected timing. Then I'd switch skinsuits and do it again. I get what you're saying that the larger the sample size the better. The larger sample the size helps to mitigate and weed out outlying times that might be effected by wind or slight (but still time effecting) changes in position. The reason I haven't done anything like this in previosu years was simply because, to me, the potential for position variation on a road bike, even when trying to maintain the same position is still rather big. On a TT bike, many more parts of the body are locked in via the aero bars. It might be worthy to give it a try now, but I don't know if I'd find them time to truly to study it and devote the time until after tmy season is done. I'd rather focus the the time on training and other things, during the season.

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