Should I go wider or deeper?

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TLN
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

Hi all.

Currently I'm riding my Allez with CL64 (29mm wide and 64mm deep) and pretty happy with it. I'm a heavier rider and it's not causing issues.
I'm looking forward to get a disc wheelset. Currently looking at two options: Roval CLX40 (40mm deep, 23mm wide) or 3T Discus 35 (32mm wide, 26mm deep).
I might get a deeper disc brake wheelset later, and looking at those two optinos now. What would you take? I'm afraid that CLX will be too "narrow" at 23mm, since modern wheels come in 26-30mm width. On the other hand if I go with 3T (32mm) wheelset it makes more sense to add second deep (60+mm) wheelset later. Less sense to have 40 and 60mm wheelsets - since they're quite close.
I know there're different "levels" of wheelset - CLX with ceramic bearings, and CL with regular. Same for 3T LTD and Team versions I think. I'm pretty happy with my "regular" C though.

What do you think?

by Weenie


Multebear
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

I ride 38 mm and 50 mm. Love them both. I don't think they are to close in depth. I probably wouldn't go 60 and definitely not 80ish. And I wouldn go 30ish either. So what I think is, don't focus to much on depth, rather focus on width, and 23 mm width is to narrow for my taste, because 23 mm tires would probably meassure like 24 or 25 on them.

And don't get cought up in ceramic bearings vs. non-ceramic either. It's nice to have, but you wont be able to feel or meassure the difference.

If you want two wheelsets and you want to be able to have something for different occassions, then maybo focus on some lighter wheels for trips to the mountains (if you travel), or one wheelset for windy conditions. I know you mentioned, that you're a heavier rider, but you'll still feel hard gusts on the front wheel with 60 mm no matter your weight.

alcatraz
Posts: 974
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Will you be owning two bikes for two purposes? Like climbing and flat riding?

Wide and shallow could then make sense on the disc brake bike.

If you are looking for a replacement bike and without many climbs then go deeper and wider. No need to go wider than 29 if you arent 100kg+ and/or ride on terrible roads. 23 is not very wide as an allrounder, but good to be faster on smooth roads and higher tire pressures.

Even if you do climbing on an allround disc brake bike you have little to gain from going under 50mm depth. People going under 50mm arent doing it to go faster but because they don't like the look or because they are weight weenies, or have had scary crosswind experiences. I ride my 88mm front in crosswinds without problems. Personal taste.

TLN
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

Multebear wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:17 pm
I ride 38 mm and 50 mm. Love them both. I don't think they are to close in depth. I probably wouldn't go 60 and definitely not 80ish. And I wouldn go 30ish either. So what I think is, don't focus to much on depth, rather focus on width, and 23 mm width is to narrow for my taste, because 23 mm tires would probably meassure like 24 or 25 on them.

And don't get cought up in ceramic bearings vs. non-ceramic either. It's nice to have, but you wont be able to feel or meassure the difference.

If you want two wheelsets and you want to be able to have something for different occassions, then maybo focus on some lighter wheels for trips to the mountains (if you travel), or one wheelset for windy conditions. I know you mentioned, that you're a heavier rider, but you'll still feel hard gusts on the front wheel with 60 mm no matter your weight.
I totally agress about ceramic bearings: I'd take CL over CLX any time just because of $ savings.
I've mentinoed that I'm riding my CL64 as everyday wheels: I can notice some wind, but overall just fine. Wheels are pretty comfy, because of width as well.
I'm not sure if I want one disc wheelset or two: 3t Discus (32mm, 26mm wide) plus something crazy deep for fast days?


alcatraz wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:51 am
Will you be owning two bikes for two purposes? Like climbing and flat riding?

Wide and shallow could then make sense on the disc brake bike.

If you are looking for a replacement bike and without many climbs then go deeper and wider. No need to go wider than 29 if you arent 100kg+ and/or ride on terrible roads. 23 is not very wide as an allrounder, but good to be faster on smooth roads and higher tire pressures.

Even if you do climbing on an allround disc brake bike you have little to gain from going under 50mm depth. People going under 50mm arent doing it to go faster but because they don't like the look or because they are weight weenies, or have had scary crosswind experiences. I ride my 88mm front in crosswinds without problems. Personal taste.
Not two bikes, but two wheelsets may be. I live in very flat area and climbing wheelest is not really needed. I can think of "gravel" and "fast" wheelset. Read gravel as allround.
I'm around 100kg, and widing CL64 (29mm wide) just fine. But question for now is: does that CL(x)40 looks good compared to other brans, being 23mm wide only?

thegeekycyclist
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:44 am
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by thegeekycyclist

Have you considered the CLX50 which is launched earlier this year? That gives you the 'in-between' option between 40 and 60.
I'm The Geeky Cyclist where I write about many things cycling.

emotive
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:40 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by emotive

Just a small correction, the 3T Discus 35 are 26mm wide, and 32mm deep, not the other way around.

The Cannondale SystemSix that was just released 2 days ago includes a new wheelset, the KNOT 64, which is 64mm deep, and 32mm wide. Cannondale found the optimal tyre width for this wheelset 26mm measured tyre, ie, a 23mm tyre. Due to the generous wheel width, a 25mm tyre measures 28mm when fitted, and has only a small aero penalty. 25mm tyres also have less rolling resistance than 23mm tyres so thats another win.

As a larger rider, there is more weight for the tyres to support, so there is more benefit to the suspension provided by 2mm larger tyres. As per the example above, for aerodynamics to work, the wheel should be at least the width of the tyre, so go with the widest wheels you can fit. If you are into the tech, have a read of the explanation on page 37 of their white paper at https://www.cannondale.com/~/media/File ... epaper.pdf

TLN
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

CL(x)50 and 64 are on my list for sure.
I already have CLX40, and was thinking about swapping with 3T discus.
emotive wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:16 pm
Just a small correction, the 3T Discus 35 are 26mm wide, and 32mm deep, not the other way around.
Corerct.
Interesting, that 3T uses that wheel on Strada (and number of other bikes, BMC I think), and it comes with 28mm tires, i.e. wider then rim. If you think about it, lots of people now use wide(28c) tires, but there're only a few wheels that are wider then that: Roval (32-50-64), Enve AR and HED Vanquish with Cannondale Knot that were released just now. Does it mean that all the manufacturers who sell bikes, provide incorrect tyres for bikes?
I got 26C tires on CL64(29.9 wide) and it makes a great combo. Tire is 28-29mm wide. 26C tire on 3T discus is 26-27mm wide (bit wide then rim) and on CLX40 it's noticeably wider then rim.

Jugi
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:10 am

by Jugi


TLN wrote:Does it mean that all the manufacturers who sell bikes, provide incorrect tyres for bikes?
Nope. They combine parts to achieve a product they think people want to buy at a given price point. I think right now people tend to think 28mm tires are somehow better than others, so a bike with 28mm tires is easier to sell than something else. Rim width does not come up as often, so those 28mm tires can be seated to almost anything.

Same kind of a discussion could be had on gearing, brakes, handlebar dimensions etc.



emotive
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:40 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by emotive

TLN wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:49 pm
Does it mean that all the manufacturers who sell bikes, provide incorrect tyres for bikes?

Right now, there are aero bikes, and endurance bikes. They are seen as different needs, with different solutions.

A small amount of riders understand and care about aerodynamics. Those that do buy a high end aero bike, such as a Venge, Madone etc. Not many bike buyers ask for an endurance bike with good aero.

For the average bike buyer, the best feature for riding faster is riding more. To achieve that, the bike companies are selling their unique method of achieving improved comfort, such as Zertz, Head shocks, Iso-decoulpers, etc. The bike brand wands you to buy THEIR brand, so they try to make a unique comfort feature, rather than achieve comfort with wide wheels and wide tyres.

When the buying public start asking how wide the rim is on a new bike spec, the manufacturers will start specifying wider rims. Right now, most people are not appreciating the importance of the rim width, but are asking about wider tyres, so the manufacturer is specifying 28mm tyres on a wheelset that supports the tyre, looks good, and meets the price point requirements.

As you mention, there are only a few wide wheel options to provide aero benefit for 28mm tyres, the ENVE 4.5 AR, and that is a popular choice among custom bespoke builds but the price is too high to be specified by big manufacturers. And now Cannondale, with their KNOT64, in their pursuit for all-out aerodynamic performance, have developed a wide wheel, but just because they have this new model, don't expect them to put 32mm wide wheels on the 2019 Synapse.

bm0p700f
in the industry
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by bm0p700f

This why I suggest an IRC tyre on my wheels in 25mm as it slightly narrower than the widest point if the rim. For the 28mm tyres though a new rim is needed. That's the problem the rim becomes tyre specific as there is no bead to head distance standard for a particular nominal width.

Every day I have to tell people ignore what's on the sidewall it's irrelavent. What matters is the bead to head distance the thread thickness and the internal rim width.

Stating a tyre is 26c is really quite meaningless without stating what internal width that is measured on. This is too complicated for the buying public.

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WinterRider
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

Interesting reading .. rim to tire fit plus aero.

Being a fitness rider interested in practical technology applied to the bike speed.. I think what you wear, your posture on the bike and how you deliver the power into the bike means more than rim/tire aero. Tell me I am wrong and why.

Wind tunnel testing is essentially paid for by the guy peddling the item. The tester asks what the peddler wants for the outcome.. and tunes the test and data to suit the situation.

The effect of a brisk cross wind .. that is why I question deep rims. I'm well aware of the 'boat tail' effect .. the trailing edge the air flow leaves the affected surface. Which goes to shape on the inside of the rim closest center. But still.. the deep surfaces still make for lots of sail........

Kinlin 270's give more 'sail' than I would have thought... kinlin 200's are nearly unaffected by cross winds.

by Weenie


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