The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
bobones
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by bobones

Aeo wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:42 am
Are you aware of this: https://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/whe ... ers_v2.pdf
Thanks. Interesting stuff. I'll study that in more detail later!

by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

That link for the new disc brake hubs.

Yemble
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:15 pm

by Yemble

F45 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:02 pm
Wow, not really ww is it? :shock:

Image
What's it going on? I'm planning a set with a dynamo front and LB rims in the future.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Has these babies built up recently.
Image
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Stans 3.30R hubs 24/28H
Mavic Open Pro UST Roma
CX Ray Spokes & DT Prolock nipples
Radial front & 2X rear

1,448g wheels without skewers, valves & rim tape

Plan on using Milkit tape & valves together with Veloflex’s new tubeless tyres.


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alcatraz
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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

On a 28h 3x produces better spoke angles. They leave the flanges almost perfectly tangentially, for optimal torque transfer.

That's the only change I would have done.

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mendiz
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by mendiz

I write here, with 71 kgs, 1,78 height, about 11000 kms per year in good roads and sunny weather, routes always climbing and descendings, I like stiffness.
Is the front wheel enough 20 spokes DT Competition 2-1,8-2 with Hed Belgium tubular rim and White Industries T11 with brass nipples to last several years without truing or I choose 28 spokes? In the rear I will use 28 DT Competition spokes
You don´t stop riding when you get old, you get old when you stop riding.

alcatraz
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by alcatraz

That should last a very long time. The rim is going to play the largest part though so don't go 20mm shallow/narrow alloy or you'll be asking for trouble.

Because dt comps are round spokes and round spokes are a pain to prevent winding up when truing, I'd suggest you pick an equivalent weight (6-6.5gr) bladed spoke for ease of building.

Also if you use a spoke key that looks like a long thin wrench and not a "butterfly" you can hold the spokes close to the nipples and get a very true wheel. The butterfly keys always create some windup because you can't hold the spoke close enough to the nipple.

Aeo
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Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:06 am

by Aeo

Or get a bladed spoke holder like this from DT Swiss:
csm_wheel_building_tool__57393.jpg

alcatraz
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by alcatraz

That's a cool key/holder combo. This key is better than my wrench because it has a three corner support on the nipple. I wish my key had that. Good for alloy nipples that like to deform at high tension.

On the other hand a wide open jaw wrench with only two corner support is lightning fast.

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F45
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by F45

Yemble wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:19 pm
F45 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:02 pm
Wow, not really ww is it? :shock:
What's it going on? I'm planning a set with a dynamo front and LB rims in the future.
On my rim brake road bike. OP UST rims, Pillar Wing 20 spokes if they get here, 24/28. 1575g.
Rims came to 416g each so I hope I can get some miles out of them before they crack.

bobones
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Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

The OP USTs are very thin at the brake track IME. There's no wear indicator so I would advise caution and keep to the max pressure limits. On one of my wheels, which didn't look all that worn, I blew the bead off when I accidentally over inflated and hit 100 psi. I had another one crack at the nipple perhaps due to over tensioning the spokes, but they lose so much tension when tubeless tyres are fitted. They do build into some nice looking light wheels though: I have one set with Bitex RAF10/RAR9, laser and d-light spokes, brass nipples that came in around 1390g.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I have built many and not one has cracked yet.

Alcatraz comment about 2x vs 3x for rims brake maybe technically true but no one will be able to tell the difference when riding as human are not that strong. With disc brakes 3x is preferred as disc brakes are stronger than humans and transfer more torque which is disc brake stop quicker than shit fixie skidders.

alcatraz
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by alcatraz

What bugs me about counting crosses is how unspecific it is.

With 2x you go from exceeding tangential angles with a 20h build, to not quite tangential with 24h, to even less tangential/more radial 28h, very radial 32h etc. You're moving towards radial lacing with an increased spoke count. The forces at the flanges change from mostly canceling eachother out to becoming a predominantly radial pull.

1x is supposed to be "too radial" bad practice but with certain 2x spoke counts you can get worse angles than 1x at other counts. Something must be lost there.

I wish to argue that the beauty of a 2x:2x 24h or a 3x:3x 28h comes partially from the angles and the spoke count. Why not keep the angles when changing the spoke count? Ignore the crosses. :D It's easy to do with J-bend.

A heavy enough rider going up a steep climb out of the saddle is going to get pings/noise/cracks earlier on a 28h y:2x rear compared to a 28h y:3x where the hub is protected better and has a better advantage of transferring the forces to the rim. Or a lighter rider emergency braking on disc brakes, yes.

I also suspect that some of the benefit of a larger PCD is lost when the angles aren't tangential, and the wheel performs equivalent to a smaller PCD hub but with the right angles.

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F45
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by F45

I do have spokes on the way for 3x 28h rear.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

alcatraz wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:57 pm
What bugs me about counting crosses is how unspecific it is.

With 2x you go from exceeding tangential angles with a 20h build, to not quite tangential with 24h, to even less tangential/more radial 28h, very radial 32h etc. You're moving towards radial lacing with an increased spoke count. The forces at the flanges change from mostly canceling eachother out to becoming a predominantly radial pull.

1x is supposed to be "too radial" bad practice but with certain 2x spoke counts you can get worse angles than 1x at other counts. Something must be lost there.

I wish to argue that the beauty of a 2x:2x 24h or a 3x:3x 28h comes partially from the angles and the spoke count. Why not keep the angles when changing the spoke count? Ignore the crosses. :D It's easy to do with J-bend.

A heavy enough rider going up a steep climb out of the saddle is going to get pings/noise/cracks earlier on a 28h y:2x rear compared to a 28h y:3x where the hub is protected better and has a better advantage of transferring the forces to the rim. Or a lighter rider emergency braking on disc brakes, yes.

I also suspect that some of the benefit of a larger PCD is lost when the angles aren't tangential, and the wheel performs equivalent to a smaller PCD hub but with the right angles.
Been building 2x 28h for years and my wheels ping for no one. Also I don't get a problem with rims or hubs cracking in 28h build laced 2x. Even the most powerful humans are not that strong.

Also consider a wheel has to balance characteristics. Maximising torsion stiffness may sound good but longer spokes mean lower lateral and radial stiffness while that trade off may be fine it not always so. For 28h rim brakes 2x seems to work quite well and I don't like the way the spoke nearly cross the heads of the next spoke with 3x lacing. The spoke spends too long crossing the flange.

With straight pull hubs in 28h this problem is avoided and 3x is once again fine. For disc brake wheels I use large flange hubs mostly so 3x works well again and disc brake wheels need it.
Last edited by bm0p700f on Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

by Weenie


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